Recent modifications to Boinc Mgr look - not liking it [have included suggestions]

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Profile Jord
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Message 38299 - Posted: 9 Jun 2011, 12:05:12 UTC - in response to Message 38290.  

Monitors - 1 LED and 1 LCD
Brightness - it runs a lower thermal temp then then norm, if I understand the question right, I manually set that within the monitors themselves
desktop theme - That's the reddish tint I mentioned, no specific name attached to it, and I tried Frost and it still had the lines.

These tell me a lot.

I myself work with an LED monitor, using a slightly higher than normal thermal temperature and when using a slightly reddish transparent tint around my windows, I see the stripes in BOINC Manager 6.12.26 very much pronounced. But that I attribute to the reddish tint playing tricks on my eyes. Bright colours do that to your eyes.

Hence why I asked you to try the frost tint. yes, you do still see the stripes in that one, as those won't go away, they're programmed into BOINC Manager. ;-)
But they do look a little more distinguished with a whiter transparent surrounding, than with a bright surrounding.

In 6.12.30 (Windows) + .31 (Mac & Linux), the rule is gone again, while the stripes are still there. You can test with that, see if it's easier on your eyes.

Those rules were put in because the bars (stripes) are not adequately visible on some monitors. between 6.10.40 (the first appearance of them) and 6.12.26 the developers spent a great deal of time playing with the colors, so they showed correctly on all monitor types.

Not having any stripes back there is hard on the eyes as well, especially when you then have a lot of messages, or a bucket load of tasks showing there. I suppose that one of the solutions would be --and I did mention that to the developers-- to allow the user to set his own background to the Manager. But again, that'll be food for thought for a future version.
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Message 38300 - Posted: 9 Jun 2011, 12:32:52 UTC - in response to Message 38298.  
Last modified: 9 Jun 2011, 13:15:02 UTC

Many people who were keen enough to update immediately to 6.12.26 have announced in these fora that they've reverted, or intend to revert, to what they were using before. (Only Windows users, as far as I know, have boincmgr.exe files they can keep.) Given the amount of resistance to the new BOINC Manager, there seems little point in developing BOINC any further until this resistance is addressed.

Of those "many people" --give a number then? 4, 5 perhaps?-- that didn't like the new BOINC Manager, it was about the Notices tab being there. Not about stripes.

I don't have numbers of people using BOINC 6.12. As far as I know, neither do you. Going by these forums, or the Seti ones, isn't accurate. What you see are people, more advanced users, who see a change that they do not like for personal reasons. This group of disgruntled people is small, extremely small when compared to the amount of people that BOINC lost because of misinterpreted messages (according to the survey, easily over 1,000).

That's people that you will never get back again. While you are still here, disgruntled as you may be, you haven't packed up and left.

Really though, when it comes to hard numbers... I was asked yesterday by the developers how many people I had seen on the forums complaining about the stripes/rules problem. I had to answer 2 or 3. Do you have any other numbers? Proof of them? Links to where they all posted en-masse?

The same goes for the Notices tab thing. In numbers it's 15 people perhaps that have said that they don't like it and are going back to 6.10.whatever. Is 15 people really a number in your opinion to hold all operations and start rethinking them, especially so when those 15 are still here, just running a different BOINC or have found their own way to run the new client but with the old GUI? What about the numbers that use BOINC View, BOINCTasks or other possible 3rd party GUIs? You also seem to forget that BOINC is more than just BOINC Manager, which is only the GUI. Saying that BOINC development must stop until the problems with the GUI have been fixed is like telling Microsoft to stop developing Windows because you do not like what Paint looks like.

Besides, the stripes are in BOINC 6.10.58/.60 as well. So if you don't like them in 6.12, why revert back to a version that has them as well?

Then there's this small but significant fact that BOINC is open source. If you do not like what you see, here is the source code, while here are instructions on how to compile it. Go make your own version, the one that suits you best.

(Again, these are my own opinions. They do not necessarily reflect how the developers think about you, or what Berkeley University thinks about these things)
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Message 38311 - Posted: 10 Jun 2011, 2:06:42 UTC

Find the differences in stripes:

BOINC Manager 6.10.58 + 6.12.32


Now, these have exactly the same stripes and rules. The lower picture may look different, but then that's because of how you sit in front of your monitor. Move your head around, side to side, go look at the pictures from a lower position, etc.

This is especially showing that way on LCD, TFT and LED monitors.


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Message 38379 - Posted: 13 Jun 2011, 4:03:18 UTC
Last modified: 13 Jun 2011, 4:23:13 UTC

OS: Sabayon Linux

I have to say I'm not too impressed by what I see in v6.12.32 for linux. I realize it's not an official release but the recommended v6.10.58 is almost a year old. I had four einstien@home tasks die and thought it might be due to changes to the project implemented for a newer boinc version. Now that I have v6.12.32 running I find a notices tab with nothing to tell me and the messages tab gone with it's contents hidden in the Advanced menu. Why do so many projects decide to dumb things down and hide features instead of educating users?

EDIT: I replaced boincmgr v6.12.32 with the v6.10.58 I compiled a few months ago but I still don't understand changes like this.
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Message 38381 - Posted: 13 Jun 2011, 5:17:24 UTC - in response to Message 38379.  
Last modified: 13 Jun 2011, 5:20:44 UTC

I had four einstien@home tasks die and thought it might be due to changes to the project implemented for a newer boinc version.

Yeah, blame the BOINC version, ey? But, no. You would have to ask at the project what their take is on "process exited with code 38 (0x26, -218)", as this is a) a science application error code; b) it happened to you for two tasks under 6.10.58 and for two tasks under 6.12.32 (6.10.58, 6.10.58, 6.12.32, 6.12.32)

So no go on the blame the new BOINC version game, mister.
You had such an error before, on a different project. Check out old Malaria messages. So it's probably something you changed yourself, or forgot to change. The error message means that the device cannot operate because some of its chunks are still available in the memory. The hardware operation is impeded. It may stop the processes required for the device to run smoothly over the course of the application.
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Message 38384 - Posted: 13 Jun 2011, 8:22:35 UTC - in response to Message 38381.  
Last modified: 13 Jun 2011, 8:50:57 UTC

Why are you so defensive? I wasn't blaming boinc for the problem. I had recently seen in the messages that a new boinc version was available but I ignored it intending to build the new version at a more convenient time. When I saw there were two more tasks that didn't complete I thought it might be due to server side updates and a new app version and an incompatibility with v6.10.58.

Contrary to what's indicated all four failed under v6.10.58. With the last two errored tasks I shut down the client and exited boinc and the next day I tried a couple unsuccessful builds (I usually compile my own with my own cflags to compensate for the win vs linux benchmark difference) and installed the premade v6.12.31 and v6.12.32. I had to create a libnotify.so.1 link to libnotify.so.4.0.0 to get v6.12.31 to run and found the messages tab gone. While running v6.12.31 I let boinc report and request new tasks. Maybe it reports this version because it was the version running when uploaded and reported or maybe boinc tried to re-run the tasks - I don't know. Then I exited boinc and I installed v6.12.32 and found the messages tab absent there too.

As for one person being the reason for the column changes... it took months for the elimination of the picflags bug that caused the unusually low benchmarks on linux computers a few years ago. I found it, fixed it, notified boinc staffers and posted on the seti forum about it but it took about eight months before it was fixed. Back then I'd download new versions and build every week and when the benchmarks were still low I'd edit the appropriate files and build again to fix it.

I haven't been posting on these fora much but that doesn't mean I'm new to boinc.

As for the malariacontrol message, look at the date. That was five years ago on a long-gone dual p3. This computer is a single processor and is watching for orbit@home work but running einstein@home. One task at a time. BOINC's disk usage is set to 10GB with 58.49GB of the 80GB /home drive free.
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Message 38388 - Posted: 13 Jun 2011, 12:23:07 UTC - in response to Message 38384.  

As for the malariacontrol message, look at the date. That was five years ago on a long-gone dual p3. This computer is a single processor and is watching for orbit@home work but running einstein@home. One task at a time. BOINC's disk usage is set to 10GB with 58.49GB of the 80GB /home drive free.

Who's being defensive now? As if it could possibly NOT be anything to do with what I said. The setting up of the disk usage preferences hasn't changed in all these years, so the date doesn't matter. It also doesn't directly matter what CPU you have.

What will matter is what all the preference settings are, for memory and disk use. As then it does coincide with your old "This left no space on the partition for malariacontrol to save data."

And if that doesn't help, then you best ask at the project what could cause the error, as it's their science application throwing it. They will know how much real and virtual memory their application takes up, and thus what's best for the preference settings on those, especially the percentages.

It's very possible that a simple reboot helps out there. I see three tasks threw a signal 8 error with a stack fault, the other threw a signal 11. It all indicates something wrong with (virtual) memory or stuck in (virtual) memory.
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Message 38392 - Posted: 13 Jun 2011, 14:52:07 UTC - in response to Message 38388.  
Last modified: 13 Jun 2011, 14:56:14 UTC

As for the malariacontrol message, look at the date. That was five years ago on a long-gone dual p3. This computer is a single processor and is watching for orbit@home work but running einstein@home. One task at a time. BOINC's disk usage is set to 10GB with 58.49GB of the 80GB /home drive free.

Who's being defensive now? As if it could possibly NOT be anything to do with what I said. The setting up of the disk usage preferences hasn't changed in all these years, so the date doesn't matter. It also doesn't directly matter what CPU you have.

What will matter is what all the preference settings are, for memory and disk use. As then it does coincide with your old "This left no space on the partition for malariacontrol to save data."

And if that doesn't help, then you best ask at the project what could cause the error, as it's their science application throwing it. They will know how much real and virtual memory their application takes up, and thus what's best for the preference settings on those, especially the percentages.

It's very possible that a simple reboot helps out there. I see three tasks threw a signal 8 error with a stack fault, the other threw a signal 11. It all indicates something wrong with (virtual) memory or stuck in (virtual) memory.


It's obvious you get some perverse pleasure from jumping all over people after not totally comprehending what they write. It's sad when a formerly reasonable individual (and I used to consider you a knowledgeable and reasonable person when I was a frequent poster) turns into someone who rabidly attacks any criticism. I stated my opinion. I explained the problem I experienced and the reason for my actions. I'm tired of trying to explain to someone with a closed mind. It's people like the one you've become that turned me away from the boinc related fora. Don't bother posting a reply. I won't return any time soon. Thank you for showing me that the comments by boinc users that are anything but gushing praise are not welcome.
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Message 38434 - Posted: 14 Jun 2011, 16:21:50 UTC - in response to Message 38311.  

Find the differences in stripes:

BOINC Manager 6.10.58 + 6.12.32


Now, these have exactly the same stripes and rules. The lower picture may look different, but then that's because of how you sit in front of your monitor. Move your head around, side to side, go look at the pictures from a lower position, etc.

This is especially showing that way on LCD, TFT and LED monitors.



First, when they look different, they are different. Second, when they look different - well, that's exactly what people are saying and complaining about, isn't it? Third, I did NOT change my way of sitting in front of my TFT, and I suppose noone of the others did - so it is clearly BOINC's fault. And fourth, as a programmer myself it looks like a graphical flaw to me - maybe in the new code, maybe in the new libraries. But that's your prob to find out and kill that bug....

So don't blame it on us users - YOU changed the software, so it is your work...

And yes, the look and feel of a software is indeed important, too.
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Message 38435 - Posted: 14 Jun 2011, 17:27:10 UTC - in response to Message 38434.  

First, when they look different, they are different.

There has been no code change between 6.10.40 and 6.12.26 on how the stripes look. They are the same. No need to believe me, you go find code change then.

Third, I did NOT change my way of sitting in front of my TFT

Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? You imply that you haven't moved one thousandth of a millimeter in all this time between 6.10.40 and 6.12.whichever you're using. Which is impossible. And even if that's not what you meant, you don't sit exactly the same way each day in front of your monitor. Had I broken into your web cam and made pictures of you, I could show you that... now you'll have to do that yourself.

With that said, why don't you try? I did, I didn't feel weird or looked at weirdly by others when I did so. You should be in the confines of your own home, no one needs to see that you move your head an inch to the left, right, up or down from your normal apparently rigid position to test something.

Come a new version of BOINC and all you who do not like something about it come out of the wood work and start to complain. This you don't like, that you don't like, this is now 'broken' in your vision and you need to get to a personal level by saying that the developers screwed up.

I'm sorry? I haven't seen any of you make a comment about this new BOINC in all the time it was available for testing. All new BOINC is always available for testing. Now a new BOINC is out, all the socalled professional programmers come out to complain. I haven't seen any of you then say that you will join the BOINC ALPHA TEST, not only to give proper testing reviews as the present group of testers must be blind and shaking in their boots. No, you will also join to make sure that these developers will never do such an atrocious thing again. And else you will start your own BOINC, as the software is Open Source and you do know so much better... right?

I know you won't join.
I know you won't make your own software, while the source code is freely available.

Complaining is way easier. And so you attack the developers on a personal level. You call their work screwed up. You say to them that BOINC development needs to be stopped.

Who is the one that actually gets paid over programming this code? Who is the one that has to write a new report on all they did to the NSF every year to get a little money coming their way?

I don't get paid. I am a volunteer. I answer on these boards because I like these boards, I like the software. I am however not allowed to take it up for the developers, some of whom I consider friends, as then I come over as unreasonable, as attacking, as uncivil. Complaint emails about me will have to be written in to David.

And thus I quit now reacting to any of the complaints about new BOINC versions, this one, the next one and the one in a year and a half time. You want to be heard? There's the email lists, go post there. If you dare.

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Message 38442 - Posted: 14 Jun 2011, 19:47:39 UTC - in response to Message 38441.  
Last modified: 14 Jun 2011, 19:55:58 UTC

The problem with it is that email lists are non-threaded so ALL topics are thrown into 1 giant icky confusing hodgepodge.

You probably had Digest Mode set to On. You can switch that off in all email list preferences and then you get emails in individually. Then you'll see them like so.

The Alpha forums are closed down.
Forums are quite old as well. Noah was on one requesting others how to make proper joints without nails.
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Message 38448 - Posted: 14 Jun 2011, 22:29:53 UTC - in response to Message 38442.  

The problem with it is that email lists are non-threaded so ALL topics are thrown into 1 giant icky confusing hodgepodge.

You probably had Digest Mode set to On. You can switch that off in all email list preferences and then you get emails in individually. Then you'll see them like so.

Errhm, threaded looks and navigates better.

Peter
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Message 38449 - Posted: 14 Jun 2011, 22:36:14 UTC - in response to Message 38448.  

I wasn't showing how to best read the archives, but was giving an example as to how emails would look like when you used non_Digest Mode. :-)
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Message 38470 - Posted: 15 Jun 2011, 20:44:42 UTC - in response to Message 38435.  

First, when they look different, they are different.

There has been no code change between 6.10.40 and 6.12.26 on how the stripes look. They are the same. No need to believe me, you go find code change then.


Then you surely can explain why so many people see the stripes now... It really is that simple: If it looks different, it is different. and: Did YOU check the code for yourself, check all the libraries? Or did you take the word of another one for it?

Third, I did NOT change my way of sitting in front of my TFT

Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? You imply that you haven't moved one thousandth of a millimeter in all this time between 6.10.40 and 6.12.whichever you're using. Which is impossible. And even if that's not what you meant, you don't sit exactly the same way each day in front of your monitor. Had I broken into your web cam and made pictures of you, I could show you that... now you'll have to do that yourself.

With that said, why don't you try? I did, I didn't feel weird or looked at weirdly by others when I did so. You should be in the confines of your own home, no one needs to see that you move your head an inch to the left, right, up or down from your normal apparently rigid position to test something.


Are you trying to take me for a fool? Stop your ridiculous speaking about "thousandth of a millimeter", if you really believe so you should learn the basics of TFT displays first and stop your work as a moderator here. I am reading for years in the BOINC boards now but never found you write something idiotic like this. But for your peace of mind: In the old version even if I move no stripes appear, in the new BOINC even if I move the stripes don't disappear.


I know you won't join.
I know you won't make your own software, while the source code is freely available.


You really know nothing about me, so don't make a fool of yourself here.


Complaining is way easier. And so you attack the developers on a personal level. You call their work screwed up. You say to them that BOINC development needs to be stopped.


I was not complaining, I just gave my feedback. Usually that is very appreciated here at BOINC. I and as far as I know noone else did ask for a delevopment stop on BOINC. In fact, it is YOU, Ageless, who started attacking the users here on a personal level (like this answer of yours shows clearly).


Who is the one that actually gets paid over programming this code? Who is the one that has to write a new report on all they did to the NSF every year to get a little money coming their way?


I don't know, but as far as I remember people who get paid to do work should do good work. At least not annoy their users.


I don't get paid. I am a volunteer. I answer on these boards because I like these boards, I like the software. I am however not allowed to take it up for the developers, some of whom I consider friends, as then I come over as unreasonable, as attacking, as uncivil. Complaint emails about me will have to be written in to David.

And thus I quit now reacting to any of the complaints about new BOINC versions, this one, the next one and the one in a year and a half time. You want to be heard? There's the email lists, go post there. If you dare.


It takes a lot more that I will write complaint emails. But I could understand if others already did. And moreover, this boards are made for feedback and discussions, so we users and the developers don't all have to use the email lists, simply because this is much more easier and more open.

One last question to you, Ageless: Why are you taking any of this stuff so personally? Could it be you are involved in some of the new "improvements"? Is that why are are acting so rude and insulting?

And btw, you don't have to be annoyed by us complainers and ingrates - as you wrote, you are are voluteer, thus you can quit at any time.

And if you dare not to answer on this topic anymore, which would mean that you would not do your job as moderator anymore, the yes, I will email a complaint about your behaviour. So better calm down and think twice.
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Message 38471 - Posted: 15 Jun 2011, 20:49:21 UTC - in response to Message 38441.  

I haven't seen any of you then say that you will join the BOINC ALPHA TEST


Alpha testers are expected to communicate with the devs using antiquated technology, namely an email list. I gave alpha testing a shot too but it was that damn email list that drove me away.


Exactly the same reason for me, although I never even gave it a shot simply because of that email list communication.
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