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robsmith
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Message 81250 - Posted: 14 Sep 2017, 21:12:28 UTC

One may extend the definition to cover dustmen - they transport goods (refuse) from the suppliers (households and businesses) to "customers" - land fill, incinerators, recyclers etc.
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anniet
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Message 81256 - Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 5:56:48 UTC
Last modified: 15 Sep 2017, 6:06:00 UTC

Until that is changed for the better, as far as I'm concerned animal welfare is low on the totem pole.
I'd like to think we're capable of doing both at the same time, but then... I've been laughed at before.

I do not accept that people cannot afford an extra 24p for decently produced eggs when they buy such esoteric stuff as pomegranate seeds at £1 a packet.
Whether you accept it or not, doesn't change the fact that it's true. Where you get the idea packets of pomegranate seeds feature in the diet of people at the bottom of the heap (who don't have enough purchasing power in their community to be served by a variety of supermarket chains competing for their custom, but get stuck with several versions of the same one in every direction so they're already paying 20-30p more for eggs than you are) I'm not sure. Be grateful you can "slum it" and not have to choose between Tesco superstore, Tesco metro or Tesco express.

I may be wrong - but it increasingly looks like your objection to eating frogs is less about cruelty and more about distaste at the thought.
Sorry, you are wrong. it is both with cruelty taking the firm lead.
You say it is the cruelty that frogs suffer in our food chain that leads your protests... then ask why that cruelty is not publicised more widely. Why didn't you already know - publicity or not? What cruel practise was leading you up until this point? That they were being cannibalised? If so, please tell me what definition you are using for the word cannibal? It doesn't have to be in a dictionary if you don't want it to be, it can be your very own one - just please define it for me? :)

I stand by what I said, Most of Europe in my view are cannibals, judging by what they eat
They are and were,..

I've learned so much over the years trying to understand why it is people eat things I wouldn't dream of eating at all, or would never have again (eg: century eggs, or blue cheese or rattlesnake, or swan, or cat, or dog or bat or whale etc) and along the way found there are often very good reasons why, locally - people do. Just because I wouldn't eat a giant pouched rat because I'm too busy being impressed by their intelligence, and/or the bond with their handlers while they sniff out landmines, doesn't mean I should begrudge someone in Tanzania from eating one. I'd rather they didn't, and no doubt they'd rather I shut up if I can't offer a reliable financeable alternative more pleasing to me that they also have no objections to.

somebody has to protect the civilised world. And sorry, you weren't quick enough THWACK!!
Remind me to never duck a branch whilst smiling again, won't you?


And don't forget that we as a species, got were we are because our ancestors realised that cooked meat was easier to eat and gave them more energy. That extra energy meant that there was enough for the brain to grow. Our teeth have developed for the varied diet, having incisors and molars.
Very true :) It's an intrinsic part of what some people would say is what "civilised us". Knives and forks. Cooked not raw. Fine dining etc

Stop trying to be what we are not, we are not vegetarians.
I stopped wanting to be a top predator, that's all really :) I try not to foist that on anybody. I cook meat for my family and friends, I don't expect anyone to go to any special trouble for me when I eat at other people's houses. I firmly believe that if I've got to go, I may as well be breakfast... but I'd probably be a bit picky about what I'm breakfast for.

edit@jord: I stand a bit corrected on the "no we don't [eat horses] people" ... seems we do - just mostly other country's horses.
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Profile Gary Charpentier
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Message 81279 - Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 13:32:16 UTC - in response to Message 81256.  

Annie is correct.

It seems it is only people with large sums of money, like Donald Trump, who want to tell others how to spend their money or live other peoples lives.
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Profile Gary Charpentier
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Message 81286 - Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 15:03:35 UTC - in response to Message 81282.  

did the goods required that the organisations you worked for, arrive by horse & cart?
Still logistics, even runner on foot.
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Profile Jord
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Message 81291 - Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 15:39:58 UTC
Last modified: 16 Sep 2017, 18:49:19 UTC

Cleaned up. All personal attacks have been removed. Two people are on temp leave. One on permanent leave.
This thread nor this forum is for your personal fights. If you cannot have a normal discussion about the topic in the thread, please leave.

This warning is for all threads in all these forums.
Any further personal attacks are now too old to lay claim on. No need to red-x them any further, they're now part of the furniture.
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Sir Rodney Ffing
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Message 81331 - Posted: 16 Sep 2017, 20:13:45 UTC

...it is the cruelty that frogs suffer in our food chain [...] What cruel practise was leading you up until this point?
My current understanding is that endeavours to reduce the practise of live harvesting of hind legs from the wild - via the introduction of frog farms - has had mixed success. Farmed frogs I believe in most if not all instances, are stunned, killed, then butchered. A considerable improvement and one that intimates commercial farming is not devoid of "merit".

Perhaps it is that practise that earned the consumption of them such protests in this instance?
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Profile Jord
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Message 81332 - Posted: 16 Sep 2017, 20:27:19 UTC - in response to Message 81331.  

What's the fascination about eating frogs legs? Or snails? Or a goose's failed liver?
What's wrong with getting your protein from a bit of red meat or chicken?
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Profile KSMarksPsych
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Message 81337 - Posted: 16 Sep 2017, 22:11:46 UTC - in response to Message 81332.  

What's the fascination about eating frogs legs? Or snails? Or a goose's failed liver?
What's wrong with getting your protein from a bit of red meat or chicken?


I like my steak juicy and pink. I'm drooling just thinking about it. I'd never make it as a vegan.
Kathryn :o)
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Profile Gary Charpentier
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Message 81338 - Posted: 16 Sep 2017, 22:51:37 UTC - in response to Message 81337.  

What's the fascination about eating frogs legs? Or snails? Or a goose's failed liver?
What's wrong with getting your protein from a bit of red meat or chicken?


I like my steak juicy and pink. I'm drooling just thinking about it. I'd never make it as a vegan.

Welcome to the club, medium raw if you don't mind. That reminds me I think the manager's special is ribeye and fried jumbo shrimp tonight. YUM!
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robsmith
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Message 81348 - Posted: 17 Sep 2017, 16:27:00 UTC

What's wrong with getting your protein from a bit of red meat or chicken?


It's a bit difficult when the meat is still strolling around the farmyard
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Richard Haselgrove
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Message 81351 - Posted: 17 Sep 2017, 17:13:50 UTC - in response to Message 81348.  

What's wrong with getting your protein from a bit of red meat or chicken?
It's a bit difficult when the meat is still strolling around the farmyard
Even harder when the venison is still running wild through the forest!
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anniet
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Message 81353 - Posted: 17 Sep 2017, 19:38:03 UTC
Last modified: 17 Sep 2017, 20:14:48 UTC

I'm so sorry everyone. I hadn't refreshed the page after an unexpectedly long and unwelcome interruption, and hadn't realised what's transpired since I last did. I can always repost once I know. As it looks at the moment, I just appear to be nattering away at myself :)

Again, my apologies. I'll come back later and comment on the rampant carnivorousness that has appeared in my absence ;)

edit: it seems it can stay... so I'll put it up there and then come back to this later :)
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Profile Jord
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Message 81355 - Posted: 17 Sep 2017, 20:00:44 UTC - in response to Message 81348.  

What's wrong with getting your protein from a bit of red meat or chicken?


It's a bit difficult when the meat is still strolling around the farmyard
So what am I to believe? Do you know people who are walking into the forest, with a handy straw to empty out an ants nest there and then, without cooking them first? Or who are luring the crickets from their garden, into their house directly into a salad?
(Aside from all those people on National Discovery channels)

You can't even shoot the cow and eat it directly, you'll first have to let the meat die out.
But given the choice between those locusts in your green salad, and that juicy steak of a 4 week dead cow, what's it going to be?
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anniet
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Message 81356 - Posted: 17 Sep 2017, 20:16:04 UTC
Last modified: 17 Sep 2017, 20:17:26 UTC

I'm not laughing at you, but you can at times fall into the trap of accrediting the human race with attributes that they simply don't have.
Oh.

Nothing wrong with always trying to see the best in people, but pragmatism must come into it.
I thought that too! ... which is why I mentioned it in my second post to this thread.

Excuse me if I have a quick cogitate in the corner and look that up in my Funk & Wagnalls.
*hammer smoke alarm into silence* when an American descriptive dictionary gets favoured favored by some UK-izens over an English prescriptive one, that *point at ground zero for smoke alarm* is what happens people.... It's a distraction those trying to see the best in people use, to avoid noticing any updates in the urban possibilities on offer... which in this instance I think was very wise ;)

Either that or it was a precursor to being laughed at in an inbox...

I did not suggest that any people were "bottom" of the heap" as you term them.
I know. You suggested no one was - I suggested some are. I wasn't aware I was giving any impression of a "them" perspective though, so I'm sorry that you did :/

You say it is the cruelty that frogs suffer in our food chain that leads your protests... then ask why that cruelty is not publicised more widely.
Excuse me? Am I the accused in the dock here? As the prosecuting counsel, perhaps you might like to produce exhibit A, to-whit your own evidence for that.
:/

My own evidence for what? I wasn't aware I was accusing you of anything :\ more that I was trying to understand what motivated the vehemence of your views. What I've left out of quotes has answered that. Thank you.

I always said that I would never let myself be manoeuvred into a corner having to justify my existence.
Okay...

But it seems that I have been adroitly outsmarted* on this occasion.
*Justifying your existence every time you feel you've been outsmarted is completely unnecessary except perhaps in a Darwin Award situation. This isn't one. Just attribute it to being dumbed down...

"for once" ;) ... on this occasion.

I do...

...when I am ;)

Not a wide open goal, just a lucky rebound off the crossbar* [* oh yes bikes. [...] High time real men put their foot down with a firm hand]
... Would you do that on a stool, or desk? *picture that in head* or could you do it with both knees bent? Or straight? Or alternately, like whilst riding your made-for-speed diamond frame... but without getting a sleeve caught in the chain ... ?

;)

Originally a cannibal was a human being that ate other human beings, cooked or not. Cannibalistic tendencies in my book are defined as anyone who eats animal items that are not obtained in a socially acceptable way, either by their death or by their preparation. Also people that choose to eat foods that the majority of people would find abhorrent. Examples are frogs legs, snails, fried insects, veal, animal guts (offal), wild birds etc etc.
Have you never had a sausage?

Oh yes wild birds, have you read up on the annual slaughter by the French using nets. Then they are then served up as a delicacy.
Yes :( I have :(( Is it a lot worse than fishing? :(

It's an intrinsic part of what some people would say is what "civilised us". Knives and forks. Cooked not raw. Fine dining etc.
No doubt Henry VIII banquets with 15 courses including stuffed peacocks would meet with your approval then?
I hope you don't mind... I put the extract you responded to back into its proper context because I think you were confusing me with someone else.

I'm not the monarchist ;) Nor am I one of the "some". I could even go so far as to say, if I had a book like yours to quote my own personal definitions from, that it would reflect quite definitely that I'm not convinced we've even remotely approached civilised... but that must be my brush with fried insects by age four :) I hadn't realised then just how socially unacceptable it was that a community that had had its cows taken for the British war effort and then its land taken "because they had no cattle" would subsist on the edges of "my father's property" and have the generosity and grace to offer two little white girls something to eat, when they were hungry and turned up a bit battered and bruised for eating the mouldy tomato* they were each given for breakfast that morning "too slowly".

... there should be a public campaign to stop the imports of EU horsemeat. Why isn't there one?
Oh I don't know... did you forget to write to your MP? ;) I'm not sure those that had the time to, knew they needed to, and those that didn't, but did know, also didn't because they just simply didn't what with everything else they have to do... Possibly? And maybe some people think they're delicious and have a better quality of life being raised for meat than being fly-tipped on our roadsides... And I'm now so curious about what they taste like, that were I to ever decide to eat meat again, I could very well skip my biggest former sin - biltong - and become even more contemptible than I already am for sampling two snails in garlic butter offered to me from someone else's plate in a restaurant half my lifetime ago. That I've had the guts to eat the guts, but not the guts to kill the animals I ate... and that I have the guts to handle and cook the meat and not expect someone else to do it for me, and might one day succumb to a soft-serve ice cream in a cone and NOT think of the cow and calf that suffered so I could... is that pragmatic enough for you...?

;)

anniet "former cannibal - no parole"

* *CLUNK* That people *point at clunk* is a signal that something just fell - into a place in my brain I reserve for sudden but delayed insights... excuse me * .... *

*please wait...
* please continue reading up there where you were just now...thankyou :)


*Which is oddly enough ... how this thread came into being... :)

edit: ...there we go ...
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robsmith
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Message 81357 - Posted: 17 Sep 2017, 20:45:31 UTC - in response to Message 81355.  

I've had fried locusts. Let's just say "They don't taste like chicken".
Probably because they were "served" with a significant dose of garlic and chilies (and not much green salad).
Quite easy to pick up with chop sticks, far easier than a decent blue-rare steak unless you spend a lot of time slicing it finely.
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anniet
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Message 81361 - Posted: 18 Sep 2017, 3:46:29 UTC

That sounds kinky ;-)
Forgetting to unhook the box that did the beeping, from round my neck, whilst trying to imagine I was going to fall asleep was, yes.

Holter monitor?
I think that's what I'm festooned with now. The first one was just a cuff to cut off the blood supply to my lower arm and hand every half hour - then make it sound like there was a modicum of prolonged but demure flatulence going on near an armpit... which had me a little worried on the bus that it might get mistaken for some kind of suicide/chemical weapon dispenser leading to a judge's note about death by misadventure ... which brings me to...

I wonder if we've got one of these?

Levels of natural or unavoidable defects in foods that present no health hazards for humans It gets interesting when you scroll down to the table.

Chocolate : Average is 60 or more insect fragments per 100 grams when 6 100-gram subsamples are examined

Hops : Average of more than 2,500 aphids per 10 grams
All nothing to worry about and part of a varied diet.

Macaroni and noodle products : Average of 4.5 rodent hairs or more per 225 grams in 6 or more subsamples.
Slightly awkward to explain away as a vegan - but at least you don't have to blink while browsing the fish entries I suppose...

I know when I used to eat cow, I either liked it rare or not cooked at all - just dried. The first time I saw a steak in the UK I couldn't help wondering who'd stolen the bulk of it. I was used to T-bone ones that rarely fitted on a plate and left no room for vegetables at all... not ones where the average magnifying glass is bigger than what you're trying to find with it...

:)
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Profile Jord
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Message 81365 - Posted: 18 Sep 2017, 10:42:21 UTC - in response to Message 81361.  
Last modified: 18 Sep 2017, 10:43:27 UTC

https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/11-revolting-things-government-lets-in-your-food/1/ has pictures of the 13 revolting things the Americans allow to be in their food.
Bugs love spices. They feed on spices, poop in spices - and even leave their body parts behind after they die. The FDA allows up to 325 insect fragments per 10 grams of ground thyme, to take one example. So spice up that dish and enjoy.

Looking up how many bugs there are in a dollop of tomato sauce I come across vegetarian, vegan or flexitarian the latter meaning they sometimes eat meat.
I wonder what that makes us meat lovers who sometimes eat just a whole iceberg lettuce. ;-)

Edit: 12,000 posts, yay!
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Sir Rodney Ffing
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Message 81374 - Posted: 18 Sep 2017, 14:58:28 UTC
Last modified: 18 Sep 2017, 15:07:29 UTC

Even harder when the venison is still running wild through the forest!
For those with an interest in keeping them there, :-) and a sense of fair play:- Low acorn yields (guardian).

Roadkill cuisine (wiki)

Reported animal deaths on UK roads (obtained from 2016 freedom of information request - http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/04/deer-are-the-most-common-roadkill-in-britain-and-the-a303-is-the-deadliest-road-for-animals/ ad-heavy site warning, ladies and gents)

1.Badger - 534
2.Bird - 22
3.Cat - 178
4.Deer - 611
5.Dog - 168
6.Ferret - 3
7.Fox - 471
8.Goat - 1
9.Hare - 1
10.Horse - 10
11.Mink - 3
12.Otter - 27
13.Owl - 34
14.Pig - 2
15.Polecat - 10
16.Rabbit - 1
17.Sheep - 15
18.Swan - 36
19.Unknown - 85
20.Wallaby - 1


edit:
...except perhaps in a Darwin Award situation. This isn't one.
The voice of experience? ;-)
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anniet
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Message 81442 - Posted: 19 Sep 2017, 13:17:50 UTC

... a sense of fair play:- Low acorn yields (guardian).
I always knew jam sandwiches were dodgy but couldn't exactly explain why I thought them so suspicious until now. :(( That's horribly devious.


Roadkill cuisine (wiki)
If it's dead and got that way accidentally; and accumulated grit and tyre-tread marks aren't an issue to the consumer; and meat produced from commercial farming is considered a definite no-no by someone... eating it makes sense. I'm not sure about pets though... I was a little perturbed by a friend who, whilst his daughter was away, managed to kill Beauty and Beast - her two fish. It's probably not relevant though. He didn't intend to eat them, he just thought they'd make excellent dead-bait for a day's canal fishing. I suggested he pop them in the freezer and wait, at least until she got home, so that she could decide. Y-e-e-e-s...

Fortunately I've never run over anything, but it's always been at the back of my mind that if I did, and it was dead, I would try not to leave it in the road, where animals scavenging for food could then get run over retrieving it, but move it to a safer place for them to do that. I've seen gulls and crows almost get splatted whilst trying to eat squished squirrels and pigeons in the roads round us :(

ad-heavy site warning
Well that crashed my browser.

I was a little surprised by the wallaby - and can't help thinking hedgehogs aren't even being given the courtesy of being identified as having been flattened.

Given the carnage :( is it sufficient grounds to ban jam sandwiches, people? And what about ... *take life in own hands* ... perhaps road vehicles with erm ... engines ...? Apart from vegetable* deliveries naturally.... ;)

...except perhaps in a Darwin Award situation. This isn't one.
The voice of experience? ;-)
Good ideas of an innovative nature always carry risks, Mr Fing. This* is one


I wonder what that makes us meat lovers who sometimes eat just a whole iceberg lettuce. ;-)
Poachers? ;) I'm always amazed at the number of caterpillars huddled together and tucked inside lettuce leaves, that need releasing into the wild, even after being shrink-wrapped in plastic and kept in a cold fridge for days.

Edit: 12,000 posts, yay!
Congratulations! *do sudden and unexpected maths*

I'd best start catching up ... 11,649 behind....
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Sir Rodney Ffing
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Message 81486 - Posted: 19 Sep 2017, 21:30:33 UTC - in response to Message 81442.  

can't help thinking hedgehogs aren't even being given the courtesy of being identified as having been flattened.
Regrettably, I must correct you, Anniet. ;-)

A study conducted in 2001 put hedgehogs at the top of mammal fatalities on British roads.

2001 (pdf)

A report from 2015, with greater scope, is not good news either.

2015 (pdf).

Roast hedgehog, once as popular as roast beef in your country, in a peculiar quirk of current law, are illegal to domesticate due to their endangered species status, yet are not illegal to eat.
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