To: The Boinc Manager application suggestion crew

I have been running BOINC for several years now and subscribe to a large variety of the projects that are available. Recently I added Moo Wrapper to my project list and it was saying I needed to upgrade to a more recent BOINC Manager to get it to work at all.

I finally did this. YUCK is all I can say of the new manager look. My prior install was a 6.10.xx version. The new install I did is of 6.12.26.

A few suggestions/changes that I would like to make for future versions (sooner the better, IMHO) would be:

#1 - the lines in between each project/task. This is too busy looking and now makes it very difficult to read. The white/gray alternate bars were plenty to differentiate each line of information. If nothing else, give us an option to turn this feature on or off.

#2 - The notices page. I guess this could be useful, but I don't really see the point for it. I can go to each project for their notices. Might be better if you could clear the notices so you'd know when they changed. I can see that once more projects start using this feature it's going to be very difficult to find information if you have 30 projects all posting into it.

#3 - The order of the tabs - Projects has always been the first tab and Tasks 2nd. I would like to see this returned - or maybe you could give the option of which tabs you want to show or not, as well as the order you'd like these tabs. That way I could turn off the Notices tab if I didn't want to use it, as well as others, like Disk Usage (I rarely look at this one)

#4 - The order of the columns within a tab, especially the Tasks tab. I liked the old order. Even better then a forced order, allow for a toggle to turn off or on a column as well as allowing the user to set the order they would like the columns to appear in. (Something similar for the Tabs Section of the manager would be great too - so you could turn off notices if you like or turn on the Event Log as a tab.)

#5 - Return the Event log (Messages) to a tab like the Project and Tasks tab. I used this feature quite often to tell if I was having an issue with a project. Having to open a separate window and keep it open (creating 2 active BOINC windows - both having the exact title name for the window on the Windows Task Bar - confusing!) just so I can follow this data is frustrating and I can see that it might have the potential of becoming a memory problem the longer it's kept open. (Again the horizontal lines drawn in for each line of data - please remove, it makes the look too busy and very difficult to follow what you are trying to read - if you really want a line, try only doing one between each set of project data that flows through this section). If you can't add it back as it's own tab - make it easier to open like a button instead of having to use a shortcut key (besides that I have that exact shortcut set to something else in windows - though since it is a shortcut attached to an icon, I will be changing it so I can use both in the future). Though getting it back as it's own tab, would be the ideal (without the lines. please).

#6 - Lastly, in the past, if you held the mouse icon over the BOINC manager icon in the System Tray (I think that's what it's called), it would tell you either how many projects were running, if more than 2; or give you the completion percentage if only 1 or 2 were running. This was a handy way to check the manager without having to open it up. Please return this as a viewable option - it was very helpful.

I just installed the manager about 2 hours ago and found all these things missing, in my opinion. I realize every person has different likes and dislikes, so maybe creating a toggle for the look/view would be possible. Even if it was a general one that made it look like the current version or a toggle that makes it look like the 6.10.xx version. That would be better then nothing.

I'm going to try and use this new manager for a few days and hope I can adjust to it somewhat until (hopefully) some changes are made to the current view. The lines definitely have to be removed at a minimum for me. If I can't adjust then I guess I will just have to discontinue the MooWrapper project, and hopefully be able to downgrade my manager back to the 6.10 version. (I really hope that is an actual possibility if I need to go that direction).

Just FYI, my BOINC background is I have an i7 processor and I run 7 projects all the time (sometimes 8 - or 9/10 if you count WUProp and FreeHAL, and add 1 more for Quake, once my sensor arrives to max it out at 11), all the while I run other applications on my machine. Some applications I run at times can be very CPU intensive. I have run 3 concurrent WoW games, 2 EVEs, Word, Excel, Web-browsing and a graphic analyzer for some OCR stuff I'm doing, and running a graphic image converter, as well as my 7 Boinc projects and I still lose very little speed/efficiency - I would guess a loss of < 3-4%. That minor loss is totally worth it to add my supply of processing power to all the interesting projects out there. It amazes me I can do all that on one machine and still complete things in a timely manner.

Another item, I want to applaud you for is that I really like the whole BOINC idea and what it does. Distributive computing in my opinion can be of a great social benefit and I have found BOINC to be one of the leaders in this area, if not the leader. This format of computing has the potential to change the world, and I believe that it has already begun to create an impact in our society and that impact will only grow as more people become aware of it's potentials and possibilities. Thank you for helping to improve the world!

I look forward to hearing your thoughts regarding my suggestions.

All The Best!

Beast
Denver, Colorado

I agree entirely to all of your sugestions.

You need to uninstall it and reinstall the old version if you just try to downgrade by running the installer it failed for me.

#1 - the lines in between each project/task. This is too busy looking and now makes it very difficult to read. The white/gray alternate bars were plenty to differentiate each line of information. If nothing else, give us an option to turn this feature on or off.

I forwarded your post to the developers and the first answer I got back was "What lines? There should be no lines. what platform is he on?", to which I must agree. What lines do you mean?

Here's what my BOINC Manager looks like under Windows 7:


Now do tell, what lines?

---

Now do tell, what lines?

I do find that on a widescreen monitor there are (fine, unobtrusive) lines between the data rows, which extend into the empty space to the right of the last data column.

And that if you have the manager open on a dynamic tab where the number of data rows varies frequently - transfers, for example - the lines remain visible after the data row has been cleared. A slightly untidy, cosmetic bug: I wouldn't call it a show-stopper. Platform: Windows.

The light-gray "rules" (lines) and light-gray "stripes" have been there since 6.10.40. The developers did this because the alternating white and gray "stripes" did not show up well on all monitors. It was implemented in March 2010, and thus far no one has made a complaint about it.

As for the constant complaint about the Notices tab and the Event Log window, Let me copy some earlier answers of mine to this thread:

Notices were added to make BOINC as a whole friendlier and easier to use for new people, since they made the complaint in the BOINC survey that the messages were scaring them away. Messages were always perceived to be errors, even when they were giving the user information about the running of the program/projects.

Notices will be messages that require a user's attention, or which are (project) news. Things you can do something about, such as a project unable to fetch work --because you chose the wrong application for which there is no work-- will give a Notice.

Things you cannot do anything about, such as Server is down messages, will only show in the Event Log, not in the Notices. The Event Log is where the Messages went to, a separate window with the whole log from BOINC startup. Advanced->Event Log.

You can easily open the Event Log through the key combo of CTRL+SHIFT+E.

A friend of mine on Seti explained the Messages window to the people there, let me copy his posts over:
OzzF4|\| wrote:

Moral of the story: Remember, we all started using BOINC, which was someone else's idea to begin with. Many people criticized the software for being too "geeky", and that criticism sticks to this day. If the Messages tab wasn't a tab to begin with, would we still be having this argument today? I see nothing wrong with the developers trying to give BOINC a more universal appeal to attract more users for the projects, even if that means our techy messages needs to be buried a little deeper to prevent it from scaring some people.

If we all truly believe in distributed computing, and that every CPU on every platform in every device should be spending their spare cycles crunching for science to further mankind, then this is the right path to follow.

OzzF4|\| wrote:

BilBg wrote:

For me "the right path to follow" is: give options to the users!

The problem is not with the new default look - The problem is that it is the only look.

The only people that are asking for options are the advanced users, which are a minority of users.

Then, many of us advanced users help out over in Q&A and often we'll end up telling the user to "unhide" the Messages Tab and tell us what's in there, which means they'll leave the Messages tab unhidden after they've received help. Then we're back at square one of users seeing the Messages tab and being able to misinterpret informative messages as errors.

People abuse options they're given. People have the option of setting up to 20 days of cache even though this messes with the BOINC scheduler, yet people do it anyway, then they complain that BOINC is broken.

---

I appreciate the feedback. Sounds like I'm going to need to go back to using an earlier version of BOINC to get the feel I want.

The items I listed earlier, are mostly items that would be nice to see as options so you could make the manager look and feel how each individual likes it. As it sounds like you are trying to create something that more people would feel comfortable with using, my suggestion would be to give more viewable options. Everyone likes options (even if some don't know how to use each one).

I don't think your goal is to alienate your long-time users but changing everything into a lowest common denominator mentality, does alienate us. It frustrating that many people tend to favor the lowest format without any options, instead of trying to bring more people up to a higher understanding. Just because it's easier or it may scare them to give them options, doesn't make it a good choice to not give others the options they are requesting.

I do wish there was an option to turn the Notices tab off, I just don't see the point for it. Getting notices such as "World Community Grid: Nutritious Rice for the World..." just doesn't quite seem BOINC related or useful.

I understand that the messages tab could scare some, but for those of us who like it, it would be nice to have it back as a tab, even if you call it the Event Log. Maybe a fair medium would be to add it back as a tab, but you have to use the shortcut to bring it up. Having to open a separate window and keep that window open is frustrating.

Your words that you getting 'constant complaints' regarding the Notices Tab and the Event Log, doesn't that mean, that more and more people don't care for the way it's being displayed now and maybe some form of change is warranted?


I tried to figure out a way to send you images of the lines I get, but though I have images, I don't have a way to post them since the forums aren't taking a local machine upload of a file - at least not that I can figure out.

I have noticed that sometimes the event log doesn't always draw a line for each line item, though usually it does. Also yesterday when I was showing a buddy the new look, he noticed that within the event log only, that every 4th line was just a shade darker, but today it wasn't showing that way. Not sure why it looks different on different days. Before I regress to the earlier version if I see any samples of these alternate looks I will take image shots as well, just in case.

If it helps, the picture shown under Ageless' post shows very light horizontal grey lines, such as between the CPDN Beta line items. Those are basically the lines I'm talking about, but on my machine they are dark and very noticeable and fill the entire grid left to right, even if the columns aren't widened to fill the entire space.

The alternate gray/white shading on each line is great, it's just the lines drawn in. If they were light grey as in Ageless' image, that would be ok - it's just the heavy lined look that is difficult to follow. I don't get lines like this in any other program, such as Excel, Word, Explorer, etc. The only one that sort of comes close is an app called Internet Traffic Agent, but that has it's own internal options for creating grid lines, including the weight and color - though I have it turned off, I could potentially turn them on to create this heavy lined look.

Part of it may have to do with my color scheme choice, I use a transparent red tint. If it was just that though, I would think these lines would show up within at least one other application, but so far I haven't been able to locate any other app that does this.

If you are interested, and want to see the images with the lines showing, please feel free to send me a private post with an email address and I would be happy to email the images I took so you can see exactly what I am seeing.

Just FYI, my machine is a Windows7 Ultimate system, with multiple monitors and multi ATI graphic cards crossfire linked (though I don't think those items would effect the look - but just in case).

Thanks again for the input, and hopefully in future versions options will become available. I think for now, I'm going back to an earlier version and just dropping MooWrapper if it can't run on the earlier Manager.


Best of Luck & thanks again for your feedback

Beast
Denver, Colorado

There are also third party apps like boincview and boinctasks that you can use instead of the manager. My current preference is boincview, although the original developer has abandoned it, so I may have to start looking at boinctasks. These apps are particularly useful if you have multiple boxes.

---

CIC1=CC=C(C2=N[C@@H](CC(OC(C)(C)C)=O)C3=NN=C(C)N3C4=C2C(C)=C(C)S4)C=C1

Having to open a separate window and keep that window open is frustrating.

How is an extra window opening 'frustrating'?

Your words that you getting 'constant complaints' regarding the Notices Tab and the Event Log, doesn't that mean, that more and more people don't care for the way it's being displayed now and maybe some form of change is warranted?

Sure, there are complaints around these forums and the Seti forums. But those would still be a minority if I understood the numbers correctly of people who will not even post on a forums to ask for help on what a message means, but instead immediately uninstall BOINC and go away, never to return again, because those messages frighten them. Or frustrate them.

And I said constant complaints, but then I am not a developer, just the moderator of these forums. :)

I tried to figure out a way to send you images of the lines I get, but though I have images, I don't have a way to post them since the forums aren't taking a local machine upload of a file - at least not that I can figure out.

No, you have to put them in an external place, just as I did. I used Photobucket.

If it helps, the picture shown under Ageless' post shows very light horizontal grey lines, such as between the CPDN Beta line items. Those are basically the lines I'm talking about, but on my machine they are dark and very noticeable and fill the entire grid left to right, even if the columns aren't widened to fill the entire space.

Just FYI, my machine is a Windows7 Ultimate system, with multiple monitors and multi ATI graphic cards crossfire linked (though I don't think those items would effect the look - but just in case).

OK, Windows 7 Ultimate, 32bit or 64bit?
Multiple monitors, what are they? CRT, LCD, TFT, LED?
With what screen resolution?
With what kind of screen refresh?
What kind of screen brightness?
Is Vsynch on or off?
Multiple ATI cards, which ones?
What desktop theme are you using?

---

Part of it may have to do with my color scheme choice, I use a transparent red tint.

I am testing with such a thing and although the stripes did not change, the colour red makes my eyes think that the stripes are more pronounced.

So something for you to test, I think that's only fair.
Right click Desktop->Personalize->Window Color->Select color 'Frost'->Save changes.

Now open up BOINC Manager. Is it still so 'busy'?

And please, do still give the answers to the other information I asked:

Multiple monitors, what are they? CRT, LCD, TFT, LED?
Which monitor do you use and see this on?
With what screen resolution?
With what kind of screen refresh?
What kind of screen brightness?
Is Vsynch on or off?
Multiple ATI cards, which ones?
What desktop theme are you using?

---

Ageless wrote:

The light-gray "rules" (lines) and light-gray "stripes" have been there since 6.10.40. The developers did this because the alternating white and gray "stripes" did not show up well on all monitors. It was implemented in March 2010, and thus far no one has made a complaint about it.

The light-grey "rules" (darker-grey borders to the light-grey stripes, more pronounced than in your graphic in Message 38192) do not appear in any of the "recommended" Mac versions before 6.12.26. Their ugly appearance is what I complained of in the News thread last month.

By the way, I've just temporarily reinstalled 6.12.26 on my G5 to see if this and the other changes are as bad as I remembered (they are) and have found a very minor mistake in the "About BOINC Manager" display. It gives the version as "6.12.26 (x86)", whereas of course my G5 is running the Mac "universal" application's PowerPC code.

I got that information from the developer for the Mac, plus the whole email conversation between the developers about it. I doubt it wasn't in the 6.10.58 version on the Mac, as the source code that BOINC is compiled from for Windows, Linux and the Macintosh is the same source code between all platforms.

So if one has stripes, all have stripes.

I even just went back to 6.10.58 to see what it looks like, and here is the screen shot:


Still stripes, though not as pronounced. I agree with that.

---

and have found a very minor mistake in the "About BOINC Manager" display. It gives the version as "6.12.26 (x86)", whereas of course my G5 is running the Mac "universal" application's PowerPC code.

The distinction (x86) and (x64) are for the 32bit and 64bit versions of BOINC.
I suppose the 'universal' PowerPC version is 32bit?

---

I got that information from the developer for the Mac, plus the whole email conversation between the developers about it. I doubt it wasn't in the 6.10.58 version on the Mac, as the source code that BOINC is compiled from for Windows, Linux and the Macintosh is the same source code between all platforms.

So if one has stripes, all have stripes.

I didn't say there were no stripes in 6.10.58. I said there were no darker lines along their borders — ie. between the grey and the white. That also seems to be what beastman said about them in his eloquent posts.

and have found a very minor mistake in the "About BOINC Manager" display. It gives the version as "6.12.26 (x86)", whereas of course my G5 is running the Mac "universal" application's PowerPC code.

The distinction (x86) and (x64) are for the 32bit and 64bit versions of BOINC.
I suppose the 'universal' PowerPC version is 32bit?

I understood x86 to refer to a particular Intel architecture, which is quite different from PowerPC architecture.

I expect what's happening here is that the Intel and PowerPC running codes are sharing message resources.

I didn't say there were no stripes in 6.10.58. I said there were no darker lines along their borders — ie. between the grey and the white.

Yes, allright. I read your post wrong. My apologies.

---

All right now, most of what you request is for every detail to be user configurable. Applications which have highly customizable appearances often have a large paid staff of programmers, or are such that the UI is the major part of the application.

Please do know that BOINC is being developed and programmed by 3 developers only, 2 of which are full-time programmers, one a part-timer. The bulk of their efforts must be directed to making sure that BOINC handles the computational tasks correctly and efficiently, does not interfere with other uses of the volunteers' computers, has support for developing technologies such as GPU computing, etc.

The BOINC Manager is a tool for controlling and monitoring the computation. There is just no time to deal with cosmetic niceties. Sorry.

---

I understood x86 to refer to a particular Intel architecture, which is quite different from PowerPC architecture.

I expect what's happening here is that the Intel and PowerPC running codes are sharing message resources.

[trac]changeset:23674[/trac] shows "MGR: Fix About dialog to show (PowerPC) instead of (x86) when appropriate."

(I did forward it to the developer. ;-))

---

Thanks for trying to answer my questions and problems. Though really all I did originally was post my suggestions for what I thought could be improvements to the overall look of the manager, that could give users some visual options. Instead of just complaining, since I know that can sometimes happen, I tried to give suggestions for improvements where I found something I didn't like - though most of those suggestions were just giving a toggle of on/off for a feature.

They were suggestions and I realize not everyone would agree with them, as well as that not all or even any of them would have even been chosen to be implemented. If they were, the time for implementing them would be a someday proposal, not tomorrow.

After reading some other posts, it does seem like they are things some users are asking for though.

I would be concerned on losing some of the advanced users though, as the advanced users have access or use the better machines - at home and work. I let my personal machine run all the time and can run 8-10 projects all the time. A new user to BOINC and distributed computing probably wouldn't leave their machine on all the time and would set it to only run when they aren't using it actively, so how many of those machines does it take to equal one advanced user machine? By programming for the Lowest Common Denominator, are you potentially gaining enough users to outweigh losing interest from the advanced user? Just because options could scare a new user, is that worth potentially losing existing users? How about an extra-advanced user button, found only after you bring up the advanced options - and then giving some of the options for advanced users in that subsection (sort of like how firefox gives some options)? I have no idea what the answers are to these questions, and I could be completely and totally incorrect in my assumptions. I am just trying to give you a different point of view.

Posting images:
As far as suggesting to use Photobucket to post my images. I realized that was an option but I don't use any social networking sites like that and for 2 pictures, it's not worth setting up an account. If you want them, just let me know and maybe an alternative way to get them to you can be found.

Me:
Having to open a separate window and keep that window open is frustrating.
You:
How is an extra window opening 'frustrating'?

As I stated it before it's frustrating to have another window open. When you have 3-10 open, adding one more to the mix is a pain. The fact that they say exactly the same thing in how each shows in the task bar "BOINC Manager...", doesn't help. The manager window and the Event log, both list that way, you never know which one you are trying to re-maximize. I also just liked it better as a tab, visually. And having to go thru extra steps then just clicking a tab to look at it, just isn't as easy. Yes, there is a shortcut, but considering I have that exact shortcut in use for a windows operation I use often, again - not easy.

I don't program and probably have just enough knowledge to be dangerous. I am fairly good at helping to design user-friendly systems though, which is why I made the suggestions in the first place. I have helped programmers in the past design systems for companies to use, that appealed to more then the generic few, so maybe someday if you get others that agree with my suggestions some of those suggestions could make it into a future version. And if they don't, oh well, hopefully the older manager will still work for me then, and at least I expressed myself instead of doing nothing.

I tried the 'Frost' tint, as you asked. Lines were still there.

Your other questions:
OK, Windows 7 Ultimate, 32bit or 64bit?
Multiple monitors, what are they? CRT, LCD, TFT, LED?
With what screen resolution?
With what kind of screen refresh?
What kind of screen brightness?
Is Vsynch on or off?
Multiple ATI cards, which ones?
What desktop theme are you using?


System - I have Windows 7 Ultimate on a 64bit system.
Monitors - 1 LED and 1 LCD
Resolution - can vary, but the LED runs HDTV mode of 1080p and the LCD is 1280x1024. These do vary sometimes though depending on what I'm working on and what I need to be able to see better - all the way down to 800x600
Refresh - No idea
Brightness - it runs a lower thermal temp then then norm, if I understand the question right, I manually set that within the monitors themselves
Vsync - again, no idea
ATI Cards - they are 5700 series with 1GB of memory on each card, and then crossfire linked - I think 5750 to be exact
desktop theme - That's the reddish tint I mentioned, no specific name attached to it, and I tried Frost and it still had the lines.


Your comment of:
The BOINC Manager is a tool for controlling and monitoring the computation. There is just no time to deal with cosmetic niceties. Sorry.

Well that pretty much says it all, and my suggestions are not needed at this time. So we really don't even have to continue the dialog, which is just as well, because this wasn't at all what I expected to have happen or occur - and now just is rather a tiresome effort in futility.

I do appreciate you trying though, but now, I'd rather just drop the whole thing, as of tomorrow my current tasks will be finished and I can safely uninstall and go back to an earlier version of the manager. Hopefully - at least that's the plan.

Beast
Denver, Colorado

I understood x86 to refer to a particular Intel architecture, which is quite different from PowerPC architecture.

I expect what's happening here is that the Intel and PowerPC running codes are sharing message resources.

[trac]changeset:23674[/trac] shows "MGR: Fix About dialog to show (PowerPC) instead of (x86) when appropriate."

(I did forward it to the developer. ;-))

Ah. A missing #elif! :)

All right now, most of what you request is for every detail to be user configurable.

I see that beastman has now answered on his own account; but it seems clear that most of what he was actually requesting was a reversal of the ugly and unhelpful cosmetic changes in BOINC Manager 6.12.26, by which, like nearly everyone else who's posted on the subject, he's appalled. (Like me, he appears to have joined these fora specifically to express this.) His suggestion of configurablity was a constructive attempt to compromise with those who presumably think the changes are a cool idea.

Applications which have highly customizable appearances often have a large paid staff of programmers, or are such that the UI is the major part of the application.

Please do know that BOINC is being developed and programmed by 3 developers only, 2 of which are full-time programmers, one a part-timer. The bulk of their efforts must be directed to making sure that BOINC handles the computational tasks correctly and efficiently, does not interfere with other uses of the volunteers' computers, has support for developing technologies such as GPU computing, etc.

The BOINC Manager is a tool for controlling and monitoring the computation. There is just no time to deal with cosmetic niceties. Sorry.

Many people who were keen enough to update immediately to 6.12.26 have announced in these fora that they've reverted, or intend to revert, to what they were using before. (Only Windows users, as far as I know, have boincmgr.exe files they can keep.) Given the amount of resistance to the new BOINC Manager, there seems little point in developing BOINC any further until this resistance is addressed. And given that the meagre development team had time to make the unpopular cosmetic changes in the first place, few disgruntled users will have any sympathy for the idea that they can't be undone because there's no time to make the GUI fully user-configurable.