I have discovered a strange situation, when the Boinc Mgr window is open, CPU usage for Boinc tasks approximately doubles. But when the window is minimized, it falls back.

Boinc sources normally include Rosetta, Einstein, WCG, Dennis and GPUGrid.

System: Win 11, ASUS Maximus Z790 Hero m/b, i9 14900K processor, RTX 4070ti GPU, 64GB RAM.

I tried to insert an image and more text but didn't work...

Questions:

Is it normal/expected that this variation occurs?

If this is normal, then clearly I can't run this at 50% CPU/100% time. 50% time shows rapid on/off of throttling peaks.

Thanks.

Richard

Is it normal/expected that this variation occurs?

No, it is not normal. I will leave why it might be happening to more knowledgeable minds than mine however!

I tried to insert an image and more text but didn't work...

Images have to be saved at an external web site such as Free Image Hosting and embedded using the "[ img
]" tags as found on top above when in edit mode.
Example the BOINC LOGO

Strange, never seen that before...

Will try.

Additional information added
[img]http://rjassociates.ca/Boinc 50-100-Profile.jpg[/img]

I have discovered a strange situation, when the Boinc Mgr window is open, CPU usage for Boinc tasks approximately doubles. But when the window is minimized, it falls back.

The attached image shows (on left graph) window minimized on left, visible in middle, minimized on right. The red line is Thermal Throttling, if I leave it up for longer Current/EDP throttling also occurs.

The lower black line is CPU usage, blue is e-core temp, upper black line is p-core temp. It is the p-core temp that is peaking.

Resource manager on the left shows CPU load by task, this doubles when the window is visible. However, the Boinc/BoincMgr loads do not change.

"Average" is normally (with window minimized) around 1.3%/task - this gives around 20% CPU usage but should be 50%.

Graph is for 50% cores and 100% time (I just read the thread about not using less than 100% time).

Boinc sources normally include Rosetta, Einstein, WCG, Dennis and GPUGrid.

System: Win 11, ASUS Maximus Z790 Hero m/b, i9 14900K processor, RTX 4070ti GPU, 64GB RAM.

Questions:

Is it normal/expected that this variation occurs?

If this is normal, then clearly I can't run this at 50% CPU/100% time. 50% time shows rapid on/off of throttling peaks.

Thanks.

Richard

You have an i9-14900K, with total of 24 cores, of which 8 performance cores and 16 efficiency cores.
As far as I know, this means you can only use the 16 efficiency cores, the performance cores are locked for use by the operating system, just as they are under Android OS. In essence, you have 16 cores that you can do with what you want, the others aren't yours to use.

So you're running 16 threads of Rosetta-beta (all single core tasks, or one n-thread?), one Einstein@Home task and Folding@Home.
What I see in the graph is that the blue efficiency core's line doesn't go up. Only the black performance core line goes up. That's probably because you're running BOINC Manager (which does a lot more than just show pretty pictures, like polling the client for updated information of all the project apps that are running, and that every second).

I wouldn't try to run both FAH and BOINC actively on the same system, they'll clash and try to take each other's resources, but if you feel it works for you, be my guest.

In reply to Jord's message of 10 Dec 2024:

You have an i9-14900K, with total of 24 cores, of which 8 performance cores and 16 efficiency cores.
As far as I know, this means you can only use the 16 efficiency cores, the performance cores are locked for use by the operating system, just as they are under Android OS. In essence, you have 16 cores that you can do with what you want, the others aren't yours to use.

"Locked", I don't see that mentioned here: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/gaming/resources/how-hybrid-design-works.html (text under the CPU images).
Or, do you mean that Boinc is designed to only use the e-cores?

So you're running 16 threads of Rosetta-beta (all single core tasks, or one n-thread?), one Einstein@Home task and Folding@Home.

This varies, I'm using multiple sources as said. Resource Manager shows them as "separate tasks". Boinc is set to 50% CPU usage.

What I see in the graph is that the blue efficiency core's line doesn't go up. Only the black performance core line goes up. That's probably because you're running BOINC Manager (which does a lot more than just show pretty pictures, like polling the client for updated information of all the project apps that are running, and that every second).

Boinc Mgr is always running, when it is minimized (hidden - taskbar) I see lower usage that suddenly goes up when it is revealed. This does not make sense to me.

I wouldn't try to run both FAH and BOINC actively on the same system, they'll clash and try to take each other's resources, but if you feel it works for you, be my guest.

FAH is set to a limited # cores, not to -1 - let system decide. So, it should not be trying to steal cores. Boinc is set to 50%, also should not be stealing (unless this means as manged by the OS/CPU systems.

Richard

In reply to Rich's message of 10 Dec 2024:

Or, do you mean that Boinc is designed to only use the e-cores?

BOINC is designed to use the CPU, not so much the different versions of CPU that have seen the light of day since its conception. To use a big.LITTLE CPU efficiently, both BOINC and the project's science programs should be specifically built for that, and neither are. We do have an ARM-specific BOINC in testing, but no project offers ARM-for-Windows tasks, so it cannot be tested so easily.

I also see that it's the other way around here on these Intel Hybrid CPU's. The 8 P-cores run in SMT mode (Simultaneous MultiThreading), making 16 threads you can use, and then there are 8 single threaded E-cores which are used for Windows background tasks only. That total makes 24 threads.

Boinc Mgr is always running, when it is minimized (hidden - taskbar) I see lower usage that suddenly goes up when it is revealed. This does not make sense to me.

Yes, but when it's minimized it doesn't need to pull information from the BOINC client every second to update all kinds of things in the graphical user interface. It only has to do that when you pull it open to the front.

FAH is set to a limited # cores, not to -1 - let system decide. So, it should not be trying to steal cores. Boinc is set to 50%, also should not be stealing (unless this means as manged by the OS/CPU systems.

Well, through neither program you can set which cores to use specifically, so it's possible they both use the same cores. And now really, because you only have 8 cores to play with, which are already multithreaded, meaning 16 threads.

With 16 Rosetta and 1 Einstein running, plus 8 cores FAH, you're running 25 threads on a 16 thread machine. Or at least, that's how I think it works.
Someone else with a hybrid Intel CPU who wants to jump in to explain how the P- and E-cores work?

Jord,

Thank you for your comments which have assisted me in reviewing this further.

I am trying to understand and manage these tasks to maximize productivity without reducing system performance. The focus is specifically on CPU temperatures. I am also dealing with Intel on issues related to the 14th generation CPUs resulting from the complete failure of the first one on this system.

I have now looked at two cases: BOINC manager not running or minimized and, visible on the desktop.

I briefly reviewed the BOINC Mgr user guide online and can see nothing referring to what I am observing. I understand that BOINC Mgr (advanced mode) is only monitoring tasks and displaying information and is not involved in the actual running of the tasks.

I understand that the preferred operation mode is to specify CPU usage and run at 100% time to minimize task swapping.

BOINC settings: 50% CPU, 100% time. FAH set at seven cores (22%), whether running or paused does not impact what happens with BOINC Mgr. I have also looked at it with BOINC utilization set to 10% but this does not seem to impact what I see.

1. Not running or minimized: Resource manager shows 22 to 25% CPU for BOINC tasks (varies somewhat depending on what is running). Resource manager also shows utilization total of 50% (essentially BOINC and FAH are the only tasks consuming resources) when the system is otherwise idle.

2. With BOINC Mgr open on the desktop: P-core utilization spikes in the 80 to 100% range initiating thermal and/or Current/GDP throttling. Resource manager shows CPU utilization for BOINC tasks doubles to approximately 50% (compared with the 25% shown when it’s not running). There is no change in utilization by boinc.exe or boincmgr.exe.

Questions:
a. If BOINC is set to use 50% CPU why does resource manager only show around 25% when the manager is not running?

b. If BOINC Mgr is not involved in running the tasks, why does the task CPU utilization double with no change in BOINC Mgr utilization when it is running?

I think the question is really about the difference between BOINC Mgr being on the screen versus hidden or not running. This does not seem to be logical to me.

Richard

b. If BOINC Mgr is not involved in running the tasks, why does the task CPU utilization double with no change in BOINC Mgr utilization when it is running?

Check closely if that is actually the case.

On my system, i use all cores/threads for BOINC.
In Task Manager it shows as 100% CPU usage, with 8.3% per running BOINC project Task (6c/12t CPU).

On my system with BOINC Manager open (or minimised), BOINC Manager shows as 33% CPU usage (sometimes 44%). The Tasks each still show 8.3%, but there are now only 8 in Tasks (sometimes 7) showing in Task Manager.

If you click on the > next to BOINC Manager it expands that and shows the other 4 (sometimes 5) now grouped there, each using 8.3%
The CPU usage for BOINC Manager and BOINC client themselves are 0%

I've no idea why some Tasks are grouped under BOINC manager when it is active, nor why the numbers change- however the fact is that BOINC Manager itself isn't using any CPU time when it is running.

---

Grant
Darwin NT.

Grant said:...

>> If BOINC Mgr is not involved in running the tasks, why does the task CPU utilization double with no change in BOINC Mgr utilization when it is running?

> Check closely if that is actually the case.

That is what resource manager shows. It lists each task separately with "Current" and "average" CPU usage.

Strangely, I have noticed that if I open/close Boinc Mgr a few times it reverts to 1/2 the specified CPU usage for the task, and no Throttling. On reboot, it reverts to what I describe... done this at least twice in the last couple of days. Anytime it reverts, I will try this and see if it is really repeatable.

> On my system, i use all cores/threads for BOINC.

I am currently using 50% CPUs @ 100% of time (should be close to 50% CPU load... my interpretation of what "uses" means, ) [The machine is used for other purposes, not dedicated.]

It shows 16 tasks (32 CPUs). Average utilization 1.2% = 20% CPU, not 50%. Even if I add up the "Current" values it is nowhere close...

> In Task Manager it shows as 100% CPU usage, with 8.3% per running BOINC project Task (6c/12t CPU).

I have noticed that BOINC tasks (running at "idle" priority), do not seem to readily yield to other tasks at "Normal" priority.

> On my system with BOINC Manager open (or minimised), BOINC Manager shows as 33% CPU usage (sometimes 44%). The Tasks each still show 8.3%, but there are now only 8 in Tasks (sometimes 7) showing in Task Manager.

Resource mgr show Boinc Mgr currently at "Average" 0.02% CPU, seems what I normally see.

> The CPU usage for BOINC Manager and BOINC client themselves are 0%

Yes.

> ... however the fact is that BOINC Manager itself isn't using any CPU time when it is running.

So it should be, but I am seeing differently under some circumstances.

FWIW, the reason that I am investigating this is that I am having issues with Throttling under low CPU loads. Waiting for the next response from Intel...

Thanks.

Richard, from an island in the Pacific, Victoria, BC

If you click on the > next to BOINC Manager it expands that and shows the other 4 (sometimes 5) now grouped there, each using 8.3%
The CPU usage for BOINC Manager and BOINC client themselves are 0%

I've no idea why some Tasks are grouped under BOINC manager when it is active, nor why the numbers change- however the fact is that BOINC Manager itself isn't using any CPU time when it is running.

This is a function of how Task Manager works in Windows. This anomaly is not present in Linux.