Boinc project list needs update:

Message boards : Documentation : Boinc project list needs update:
Message board moderation

To post messages, you must log in.

AuthorMessage
ProDigit

Send message
Joined: 8 Nov 19
Posts: 642
United States
Message 96578 - Posted: 10 Mar 2020, 0:09:26 UTC
Last modified: 10 Mar 2020, 0:14:00 UTC

Below are my findings on the BOINC projects list for Android client.
Done from memory.
I wished I could re-edit the post later on to correct any errors (Moderators, would this be possible to extend edit time on this to a few days?).

Green: working (no modification necessary in the list or in Boinc MGR):
- Asteroids
- Collatz Conjecture
- Einstein
- Moo! Wrapper
- PrimeGrid
- Universe (also has work for Android 10 devices)
- Yoyo


Olive: Working, but will need list update soon:
- Seti (project will go down on 3/31/2020)


Orange: Listed as working, and visible in MGR, but no tasks available to test if it's really working:
- Rosetta


Brown: Not listed as working, though visible in MGR, but no tasks available to verify if it's working
Project doesn't warn of incompatibility, and project should not be visible in MGR:

- BOINC@TACC
- CAS
- DENIS
- Gerasim
- GPUGrid.net
- Nanohub
- RakeSearch
- ODLK1 & ODLK


Blue: Android is listed as supported, but not visible in MGR:
- LHC
- Quake Catcher Network


Red: Listed as Android compatible, but not working. List needs update:
- World Community Grid (doesn't support ARM processors)


Indigo: Listed, with other issues:
- Radioactive (Supports single board computers, not standard Android devices, due it it needing a radioactive probe that fits on the GPIO pins)


Violet: Not listed as working, Not working, but still visible in Boinc MGR (should not be visible)
- MindModeling
- Milkyway

ID: 96578 · Report as offensive
Dr Who Fan
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 10 May 07
Posts: 715
United States
Message 96602 - Posted: 10 Mar 2020, 15:47:36 UTC - in response to Message 96578.  

World Community Grid (WCG) DOES support and currently running on Android ARM - Smash Childhood Cancer tasks.

There was a temporary hiatus on tasks while they were waiting for more data from the science team behind the subprojects origin.
ID: 96602 · Report as offensive
Dr Who Fan
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 10 May 07
Posts: 715
United States
Message 96603 - Posted: 10 Mar 2020, 15:53:11 UTC
Last modified: 10 Mar 2020, 16:05:52 UTC

PrimeGrid does NOT run on ARM or Android.
https://www.primegrid.com/apps.php

# Edit to add #
Collatz does NOT run on ARM or Android.
https://boinc.thesonntags.com/collatz/apps.php
ID: 96603 · Report as offensive
Dr Who Fan
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 10 May 07
Posts: 715
United States
Message 96613 - Posted: 10 Mar 2020, 17:17:29 UTC

Brown: Not listed as working, though visible in MGR, but no tasks available to verify if it's working
Project doesn't warn of incompatibility, and project should not be visible in MGR:
- BOINC@TACC
- CAS
- DENIS
- Gerasim


* DENIS - DEAD PROJECT -- no work and no posts from project owner/scientists for over 1 year, forum spam not being removed. Should be removed from the ACTIVE BOINC project list all together.
- BOINC@TACC - Android & ARM NOT supported https://boinc.tacc.utexas.edu/apps.php.
- CAS - Android & ARM NOT supported http://casathome.ihep.ac.cn/apps.php.
- Gerasim - Android & ARM NOT supported - Windows 64-bit only supported http://gerasim.boinc.ru/users/viewApps.aspx.
ID: 96613 · Report as offensive
Dr Who Fan
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 10 May 07
Posts: 715
United States
Message 96614 - Posted: 10 Mar 2020, 17:18:30 UTC

Brown: Not listed as working, though visible in MGR, but no tasks available to verify if it's working
Project doesn't warn of incompatibility, and project should not be visible in MGR:
- GPUGrid.net
- Nanohub


- GPUGrid.net - Android & ARM NOT supported - Windows 64-bit, Linux 64-bit AND MUST HAVE NVIDA GPU http://www.gpugrid.net/.
- Nanohub - Android & ARM NOT supported https://boinc.nanohub.org/nanoHUB_at_home/apps.php.
ID: 96614 · Report as offensive
Dr Who Fan
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 10 May 07
Posts: 715
United States
Message 96615 - Posted: 10 Mar 2020, 17:19:00 UTC

Brown: Not listed as working, though visible in MGR, but no tasks available to verify if it's working
Project doesn't warn of incompatibility, and project should not be visible in MGR:
- RakeSearch
- ODLK1 & ODLK


- RakeSearch - Android & ARM NOT supported https://rake.boincfast.ru/rakesearch/apps.php.
- ODLK / ODLK1 - Android & ARM NOT supported on either project https://boinc.progger.info/odlk/apps.php / https://boinc.multi-pool.info/latinsquares/apps.php.
ID: 96615 · Report as offensive
ProDigit

Send message
Joined: 8 Nov 19
Posts: 642
United States
Message 96617 - Posted: 10 Mar 2020, 17:32:14 UTC

One of the reasons I made this thread is just to accurately update the list.
I wanted to correct some errors yesterday, after I saw by using boinc bam account manager, that a lot of projects from my bam account on my desktop (x86/64) were imported on the arm boards. Hence the confusion.

This definitely needs to be taken a look at! Bam should not port x86 jobs to managers running on incompatible hardware or software.
If a project doesn't support the CPU architecture, or the operating system, it shouldn't automatically add the project!
ID: 96617 · Report as offensive
Richard Haselgrove
Volunteer tester
Help desk expert

Send message
Joined: 5 Oct 06
Posts: 4536
United Kingdom
Message 96622 - Posted: 10 Mar 2020, 18:42:37 UTC

The 'Science projects' list on this website and the list in BOINC Manager are both generated from the same source. Named projects are added to the list (on request) by David Anderson. The devices supported by each project are generated automatically from the plan_class names exported by each project.

Having updated the code which generates the 'supported device' icons in BOINC Manager (#2643), I'm pretty sure it's robust. I'm only aware of one false positive - LHC's 'native_theory' and 'native_mt' plan classes falsely trigger the 'ATI supported' flag for the project.

BAM! is an independent third party initiative, not under the control of BOINC. You'll have to take up any issues with them directly.
ID: 96622 · Report as offensive
Profile Jord
Volunteer tester
Help desk expert
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 29 Aug 05
Posts: 14684
Netherlands
Message 96627 - Posted: 10 Mar 2020, 19:12:51 UTC - in response to Message 96578.  
Last modified: 10 Mar 2020, 19:13:20 UTC

Below are my findings on the BOINC projects list for Android client.
7.16.5 presently being tested has an Android only listing of Androids, Einstein, LHC, Moo!, Rosetta, Seti, Universe, World Community Grid, Yoyo and the BAM!, Gridrepublic, Science United and GRCPool account managers.

This definitely needs to be taken a look at! Bam should not port x86 jobs to managers running on incompatible hardware or software.
Any problems you have with BAM! you best post at their forums so Willy can take a look at it. BAM!, other than using the BOINC name, is in no way or sense affiliated with BOINC.
ID: 96627 · Report as offensive
ProDigit

Send message
Joined: 8 Nov 19
Posts: 642
United States
Message 96642 - Posted: 10 Mar 2020, 22:27:19 UTC - in response to Message 96622.  

The 'Science projects' list on this website and the list in BOINC Manager are both generated from the same source. Named projects are added to the list (on request) by David Anderson. The devices supported by each project are generated automatically from the plan_class names exported by each project.

Having updated the code which generates the 'supported device' icons in BOINC Manager (#2643), I'm pretty sure it's robust. I'm only aware of one false positive - LHC's 'native_theory' and 'native_mt' plan classes falsely trigger the 'ATI supported' flag for the project.

BAM! is an independent third party initiative, not under the control of BOINC. You'll have to take up any issues with them directly.

Bam manager does use BM (Boinc Manager). Boinc Manager is the one that interfaces with BAM.
Sounds to me that either one of them could do it.
ID: 96642 · Report as offensive
Richard Haselgrove
Volunteer tester
Help desk expert

Send message
Joined: 5 Oct 06
Posts: 4536
United Kingdom
Message 96644 - Posted: 10 Mar 2020, 22:33:56 UTC - in response to Message 96642.  

Bam manager does use BM (Boinc Manager). Boinc Manager is the one that interfaces with BAM.
Sounds to me that either one of them could do it.
Really? Methinks you need to read Account Management. And remember the role of the client.
ID: 96644 · Report as offensive
ProDigit

Send message
Joined: 8 Nov 19
Posts: 642
United States
Message 97182 - Posted: 30 Mar 2020, 13:12:51 UTC - in response to Message 96644.  
Last modified: 30 Mar 2020, 13:14:39 UTC

Bam manager does use BM (Boinc Manager). Boinc Manager is the one that interfaces with BAM.
Sounds to me that either one of them could do it.
Really? Methinks you need to read Account Management. And remember the role of the client.

Why does Boinc Manager allow BAM to import erroneous projects?
Even if BAM does what it shouldn't, the Manager "aka managing", should refuse the request.
It makes no sense that a third party add-on is able to essentially 'break the system'.
I also don't like to pingpong issues that are clearly supposed to be dealt by manager to other departments.
If BAM is responsible, then so is Manager!
It will be a security flaw, if add-ons accepted by manager, are going to allow for misconfigurations, or worse, could break the system.
It is a Manager issue!
ID: 97182 · Report as offensive
robsmith
Volunteer tester
Help desk expert

Send message
Joined: 25 May 09
Posts: 976
United Kingdom
Message 97190 - Posted: 30 Mar 2020, 14:36:37 UTC

Your understanding falls short of the way shut managers are intended to function, and, in the main, do function.
BAM, along with other BOINC managers, are there to manage the way your client(s) work.
They do not manage the way to projects manage themselves. The projects are independent of each other, and are run by independent groups. The projects send out, or at least are meant to send out, regular status reports; not every project does so, also projects are supposed to "tell the world" when they shut down, again not every project that has shut down has done so.
ID: 97190 · Report as offensive
Profile Jord
Volunteer tester
Help desk expert
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 29 Aug 05
Posts: 14684
Netherlands
Message 97191 - Posted: 30 Mar 2020, 15:07:09 UTC - in response to Message 97182.  
Last modified: 30 Mar 2020, 15:08:00 UTC

And remember the role of the client.

Why does Boinc Manager allow BAM to import erroneous projects?
Even if BAM does what it shouldn't, the Manager "aka managing", should refuse the request.

BOINC Manager manages BOINC, the client. It does not manage anything external. BOINC Manager is a graphical user interface that allows you to easily control and manage the BOINC client. Because else you'd all have to do that via command line and [url+https://boinc.berkeley.edu/wiki/Boinccmd_tool]boinccmd tool[/url].

BAM, Gridrepublic, Gridcoin, SU and whatever other account managers there are are websites via which you set which projects you want to run and these communicate that to the BOINC client.

BAM, GR, GC and SU are all independent entities, just as each and every project is its own entity. Any problems you have with the account managers you should report to the account managers as else they can't check if it is their problem or not.

I would appreciate it if you followed the links we point to, so you can read up on how things work, before you point out something that isn't a problem again.
ID: 97191 · Report as offensive
ProDigit

Send message
Joined: 8 Nov 19
Posts: 642
United States
Message 97206 - Posted: 31 Mar 2020, 20:09:01 UTC - in response to Message 97191.  
Last modified: 31 Mar 2020, 20:12:21 UTC

And remember the role of the client.

Why does Boinc Manager allow BAM to import erroneous projects?
Even if BAM does what it shouldn't, the Manager "aka managing", should refuse the request.

BOINC Manager manages BOINC, the client. It does not manage anything external. BOINC Manager is a graphical user interface that allows you to easily control and manage the BOINC client. Because else you'd all have to do that via command line and [url+https://boinc.berkeley.edu/wiki/Boinccmd_tool]boinccmd tool[/url].

BAM, Gridrepublic, Gridcoin, SU and whatever other account managers there are are websites via which you set which projects you want to run and these communicate that to the BOINC client.

BAM, GR, GC and SU are all independent entities, just as each and every project is its own entity. Any problems you have with the account managers you should report to the account managers as else they can't check if it is their problem or not.

I would appreciate it if you followed the links we point to, so you can read up on how things work, before you point out something that isn't a problem again.


Sorry to keep bouncing heads, but I totally disagree with the assessment that it's a BAM issue.

If the manager is nothing but the GUI face of the client, then this is a client issue.
I see the manager and client as one unit. But to be technical, yes, you're right there. It's the client that is responsible for allowing projects on the hardware.

The client should be responsible for not allowing tasks to be imported that the hardware doesn't support.
BAM does what it does as a remote setting or configuration that covers a plethora of hardware, and makes no error. There's just no humanly good way to adjust BAM to suit a variety of hardware out there.
It would mean adjusting a new profile for every different hardware used.
This is not feasible.
Instead BAM can be used to generate a global profile, and depending on the hardware capabilities of the PC/server/whatever you're running it on, the client can decide which projects to allow, and which ones to remove from the project list.

BAM can't distinguish between the hardware I'm running on one unit vs another.
The client does.
Therefor I would say that it's not a BAM issue.

I think the client should protect the hardware from the most common mis-configurations used by BAM or other, since it needs to be a local program that is in control of these settings; not a remote one.
ID: 97206 · Report as offensive
ProDigit

Send message
Joined: 8 Nov 19
Posts: 642
United States
Message 97207 - Posted: 31 Mar 2020, 20:14:45 UTC - in response to Message 97190.  

Your understanding falls short of the way shut managers are intended to function, and, in the main, do function.
BAM, along with other BOINC managers, are there to manage the way your client(s) work.
They do not manage the way to projects manage themselves. The projects are independent of each other, and are run by independent groups. The projects send out, or at least are meant to send out, regular status reports; not every project does so, also projects are supposed to "tell the world" when they shut down, again not every project that has shut down has done so.

I'm not talking about that.
I'm telling how a BAM profile, with attached projects can be imported into a client running incompatible hardware.
That shouldn't happen.
ID: 97207 · Report as offensive
Profile Jord
Volunteer tester
Help desk expert
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 29 Aug 05
Posts: 14684
Netherlands
Message 97211 - Posted: 31 Mar 2020, 21:25:19 UTC - in response to Message 97206.  

BAM can't distinguish between the hardware I'm running on one unit vs another.
The client does.
Therefor I would say that it's not a BAM issue.
You are still not understanding what an account manager is. An account manager is a website through which you can set for multiple machines at once which projects these machines should add into BOINC.
As with any project, you can setup several different groups of venues/locations, so to split your computers into groups with the same hardware.
That way you can set per venue which projects should be added and which not. So there's some responsibility at setting up an account manager, just like you have that responsibility when you add projects manually.

Now, as to projects without ARM capability being added to ARM devices, that's completely possible. Because in the future the project may decide to add ARM capability, and then at least your devices are already ready to receive. They will ask for work, but never get any as long as the project does not have an application that cannot run on that hardware.

So there's nothing wrong with BOINC, it's all working as intended. Even BAM is working as intended.
And if you don't want this to happen, if you want your ARM devices only to get the projects that have an ARM application NOW, then you should just spend some time to group your hosts into groups: https://www.boincstats.com/bam/hosts/, https://www.boincstats.com/bam/hostGroups/
ID: 97211 · Report as offensive
ProDigit

Send message
Joined: 8 Nov 19
Posts: 642
United States
Message 97661 - Posted: 15 Apr 2020, 1:58:41 UTC
Last modified: 15 Apr 2020, 2:02:01 UTC

Like I said before, grouping them is not a feasible option (at all).
It's basically asking thousands of people to configure more than 10k clients just to bypass this malfunction!

I think what the client is missing, and projects, is read the 'flag' of the project.
If the project is flagged as 'x86', the client should reject the project if it doesn't support that architecture. Kind of like the little icons you see in each project indicating 'nvidia', 'ATI/AMD', x86. intel, arm, android.
It's not only incompatible hardware, but the client does the same thing for software as well.
It will allow a 'windows' or 'linux'-only project to be imported on Android or visa versa, in which some there also are compatibility issues.

If a project is later upgraded to supporting ARM, the flag can be modified, and the client can allow such projects to be loaded on the host.
This works for Linux vs Windows only projects as well.

I think simpler it can't be explained. The host grouping is a total disaster and a mess!
There's no order in this.
I mean, you can continue to argue that there's nothing wrong with all of this, but yes..
There is something wrong. And I'm just pointing it out.
And all it needs is a bug report and a good few hours of coding, to implement a 'flag' system inside the software, to filter out the incompatible projects.
ID: 97661 · Report as offensive
Profile Jord
Volunteer tester
Help desk expert
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 29 Aug 05
Posts: 14684
Netherlands
Message 97667 - Posted: 15 Apr 2020, 7:31:22 UTC - in response to Message 97661.  
Last modified: 15 Apr 2020, 7:33:21 UTC

You still don't get it. What you ask for is already built into the client, it's been there since the beginning of BOINC.
When your client asks for work from a project, it may already ask for work for CPU and GPU. The latter because you have a capable GPU in your system. With what you ask, the client would just ask for CPU work and only that, forever.

But BOINC is more intelligent than that: it'll ask for work for CPU and GPU, even if the project doesn't have any GPU applications, so that in the future, when the project decides to develop a GPU application, work requests for it are seamlessly done already. And depending on the GPU, given.

And then it asks for and get work based on the architecture it's installed on. A Linux client will only get Linux science applications, a Windows client will only get Windows science applications. A Mac... An Android... One can only load the wrong architecture onto the Android client by spoofing it to be something it isn't.

When BOINC makes a work request a lot happens in that request. The whole output of the sched_request_project_name.xml file is sent to the project in a handful of seconds, with the whole of the sched_reply_project_name.xml file as answer. When you enable the http_debug flag you can see all of that in the event log. Then you can also see what your client is asking work for.

In my case for instance, key lines Milkyway@Home | Requesting new tasks for AMD/ATI GPU, [http] [ID#1] Sent header to server: User-Agent: BOINC client (windows_x86_64 7.16.5). This means my client can't get AMD/ATI GPU work for Linux, because the server sees I don't have it. I can only get work for Windows (32bit and 64bit applications).
Android BOINC will for instance have the BOINC client starting with version N for aarch64-android-linux-gnu, this means no x86 applications, or Windows, or Mac, or pure Linux even can be sent to it. Unless the project names their science applications and plan classes illogically.

Your Android client can even be asking for work for a (Mali) GPU which none of the projects have an application for. But one might in the future, and then BOINC will be ready to ask work for it, without you having to keep an eye on things. Asteroids@home|Requesting new tasks for Mali-T720
ID: 97667 · Report as offensive

Message boards : Documentation : Boinc project list needs update:

Copyright © 2021 University of California. Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation.