Warning: LONG POST. Copied from a thread in the Seti forums. I thought it would do good here as well, as there's a lot of truth in it.

Discussion possible.

Paul D. Buck wrote:

This is a typical private message. Since I have a large stack of these I guess it it better to bring it out in the open, and, though this is one persons/question response ... it is typical of quite a few ...

For those that don't like long posts ... TOUGH! Don't read on ...

Paul, Are you back? It's been a long absence. Good to see you around BOINC.

not for long ...

And the more I see, the less I wan to stay

Is it just SETI or all the BOINC projects?

yes ...

Both ...

I note that the same arguments and problems (for the most part) are still here, even though we talked about most of these in BOINC Beta!

- Why do people leave ...
- High attrition rate ... 271 TC jumps me up 1,854 people (of 9,000)??? another project 928 TC jumps me 13,554 (of ~90,000)???
- Why is the credit system unfair/broken ...
- Developer's ignoring important problems because they don't understand the need
- Bugs
- Flames ...
- Projects not paying attention or caring about the participants ...
- etc.

The only thing that seems new is the lack of passion *FOR* BOINC ... I do note many familiar names, and, sadly have forgotten many others that still carry the torches on high, but even you guys look tired ...

After 2 years hiatus my return has shown me that there is NO compelling new feature that would attract me to BOINC or the BOINC world.

The GUI is the same, the "simplified" version stinks and is obviously designed by geeks for other geeks, and the "advanced" version simply has more switches and features that are, of course, not explained in the so called "help" page.

Just as an example, the new "advanced menu" has an option to look a preferences with no clue that if you click Ok that you have taken your computer out of the web based preferences... or for that matter, whether you are *ON* web or *LOCAL* preferences.

Half of the projects have no compelling screen saver.

I see postings still bemoaning the need for more participants, and with more projects the available pool of participants and their computers is spread over a wider pond. As I noted above, the fact that in a week I can jump over 13,554 participants in the rankings list with an absurd production of 928 CS means that AT LEAST 15% of the participants have done less for just that one project...

In the thread in "Politics" I posted some of these, and other, observations in that thread that then degenerated into another discussion of credit, and it arcane minutia ... another constant ... all threads degenerate towards a reference to Adolph Hitler, or BOINC Credit ...

Project still want to live in their ivory towers pretending that participants are only a figment of their nightmares, and can safely be ignored in the light of the day. After all, they are just a bunch of unreasonable whiners ... Why should we talk to them, there are more important things to do ...

Where is Astropulse? The other promised projects database visibility, etc (I for get their names, my apologies)? I only mention these rhetorically because they illustrate the perpetual problem. THe projects complain about over work and lack of time and yet avail themselves not of resources readily available ...

The excuse that science is hard and boring is so much bovine refuse. These projects are boring because no one on the project is doing anything to make them not boring. When i was small there was a VERY popular TV show about science that was aimed at children ... again, memory fails. But science is boring because no one takes the time to make it un-boring, with rare exceptions... Yet Hawking writes best sellers ... Sagan ... well, you get my point ...

Just to finish this one point ... if the SETI database was available, even as a compressed raw data dump in a zip file (and why not, what is secret?), who knows what I might have done with that data ... after all, that is what I used to do for a living, analyze systems, and data ... oh, my, yes, data and the patterns within ...

When you are born autistic, as I was, you live in a different world than everyone else ... you see things that no one else sees. Hypocrisy is one thing... when people say one thing, or profess strong belief in something, and their actions show just the opposite. The guy that professes a belief that the credit system is flawed and that his tool that exploits the flaw doesn't make the situation worse. The project guy that professes a lack of time yet refuses offers of help because there is that slight chance that things won't be done exactly as he would have done them ... no matter that the results would likely be little different, if not better ... but, better to refuse than to lose even an iota of control.

Instead of fixing systemic problems, and real issues ... what do I see ... web site "eye-candy" that is cumbersome in use and adds nothing of value. Web controls with the most confusing list of this works with this versions and this does not work with that version ... version of what? and how does the work with the other sites running different versions of the web software ... oh, and be sure there is no documentation ...

Ah, yes, my personal peeve ...

BOINC the project only wants to see BOINC the tool ... SAH only wants to see SAH ... EAH only wants to see EAH, Rosetta ... well ... you get my drift ...

The problem is simple ... that is not how the participant, particularly the non-technical person sees the thingie ... He/she sees BOINC which CONTAINS projects ... quite simply BOINC is a system with participants, BOINC, Projects, their research, work and results, etc ...

An therein lies the problem ... still ...

Because each only wants to see their part of the elephant ... none is willing to to take that next step that is still so necessary ...

In my long prior BOINC career I made many proposals ... *MY* recollection is that I batted about 0 for 1,000 ... all of them had one intent ... to fix these systemic problems, and a few minor irritants ... and here we are .. the same problems I and others identified in the Beta lo those many years ago, well, still here ...

I saw a comment about how whiners about credit should just shut up, that credit is an intangible and worthless ... and completely misses the point. The person that wants his green star is not whining, nor a wuss, neither is the person that wants a proper accounting of his work effort. They want to be paid in the coin of the realm for their effort. You and I could walk into the same store and buy a little gold anchor with two stars ... and we both could wear that little pin ... yet, the difference is that I *EARNED* the right to wear that pin ... it is very likely that you did not ... and that makes all the difference in the world. The guy that did was was needful to get the star should get his star...

Processing a piece of work should earn the proper payment ... regardless of the coin ... Platinum coins in EverQuest have no intrinsic value either ... yet, they are the coin of the realm. Having more, well, that is better than having less ...

My CS score is of no value, yet it is a way I demonstrate to the world that "I DID THIS..." I earned this ... when you go to work in the morning it is with the full expectation that you will be fairly compensated for your labor. The same is true here ... The other discussion that was mostly about the use of optimized applications and their effect on earnings (from my perspective) completely missed the point. Regardless of how long a time it took for me to produce the work, the pay is the same. If I get the result faster, regardless of how, is not relevant. I pay for the chair, no how long it took you to make it ... as long as it is made to standard ... in this case, did it validate? If so, same pay ... If I have a faster machine, or a faster processing application, irrelevant ...

But, not to ignore the cross-platform issue, well, that was the point of using a synthetic benchmark ... of course, in the Beta phase we proved that it was ineffective in predicting processing performance. I know, I was part of the effort, heck, I may even have some of the spreadsheets around ... I know I put some of the data into the Wiki ...

But this is an issue that the BOINC team wants to ignore ... and I have seen the excuses ... even the new one about the projects are doing "x" ... the reality is that they don't want to deal with it because they can't see the importance because they never look at BOINC the System which includes more than BOINC the application.

It is bad enough that the projects abdicate responsibility for everything that is over their own self imposed horizon. It is worse that they individually and collectively do things that exacerbate the situation.

My last effort was to try to coalesce the community ... the response was, to say the least, tepid ... to hostile ... but that is what this is ... a community that has users and developers and projects ... I would say that it is similar to the Linux community ... but it isn't ... because, the collective we refuse to see it ... when I was still able to track things the Linux community was dynamic, vibrant, and full of hope ... perhaps someone in the know can tell me if this is still true, or not ...

But, taking that as a model ... where could BOINC be now?

Users proposing changes, discussing them, deciding on what features are necessary, and which can wait ... and then the developers, from all over the world ... making the needed changes while we argue the next set of features ...

Engaging the users in the discussions and not giving them grief because you don't see the need for a feature ... The problem is that if the participants see the need for a feature and you don't, and prevent that feature from being realized, then you are the problem now ...

The university project using the resources, like the marketing classes, to help us develop marketing strategies ... oh, I forgot, you have too much to do and this would help BOINC and not your project ...

And, yes, documentation ... I failed to get my "Unofficial Wiki" made into the "official" one because UCB wanted it to cover ONLY the BOINC application ... ignoring the fact that the user does not see BOINC the application as distinct and separate from the projects they run ... and in many cases, the interaction between the two IS the problem. Though UCB now is using Wiki format for their content it is, as he said in the movie, "written like stereo instructions" and thereby useless for real people. And the unofficial one? The recent changes shows two entries ... so I guess it is perfect? Another friend told me about their FAQ, and I looked at it, and I suppose that it is good, but, now we have 3 places and three people that have to update for every change ... and this I learned from just coming back ...

And so, to find fault ... no wonder we are so busy. We are all doing the same things... over and over and over... duplicating work because we let our ego says we can do it better and I want control in all aspects of whatever or I won't play with others ...

And thus ignore the lesson of Wikipedia, which is why I did my work in Wiki format ... so *WE* the BOINC Community, could coalesce around a common agreed upon knowledge base ... But no, we all know that we know better than the other guy ... and besides ... mine is better ...

I wonder where we would be now if not for one bit of intransigence ... would I still be willingly paying for hosting the BOINC Wiki where ALL BOINC projects documented the technical aspects of their projects? Where if you had a question about the BOINC interface you went to a page that had more than one line non-explanations about the tool ... where if you did not understand a web page ... somewhere there was an explanation? Indeed, where could we be now if we recognized that we were a community that was stronger because, though I let you walk on my grass and your dog do his thing there I was still better off because I not only gained fertilizer, but a friend and neighbor.

Instead, we have fences that we refuse to look over ... and armed with our shotguns we blast away at those that challenge the orthodoxy of our faith that the world is flat and my project has no responsibility for the BOINC application ... and it none to the projects ... and neither to the people that use it ...

When I left two years ago I explained why... and some labeled me whiner and good riddance ... and so ... get the label gun out again ... label me what you will ...

I don't, and never have, pretended to have a monopoly on the truth, or the best idea... but that is why I always did the best I could to craft the proposal and then to submit it for review and comment.

And so, yes I did leave and the reason was more complicated than just disgust and failing health ... though my struggles trying to make BOINC better and the frustrations the failures engendered, once ended made an immediate and positive change in my health. And it was never just about one project changing my account and thereby 'stealing" 171,000 some CS ... it was the fact that the project could act against anyone with impunity. My love of irony noted that while looking about, that same project had done similar things to other participants.

In the service I learned about authority, responsibility, and accountability. I learned what it means to be a leader and how few people who think they are, really are ... sadly most people that consider themselves leaders are merely people invested with power. A leader knows that he has authority over those reporting to him, but he also has responsibility towards them and accountability for his decisions and orders. When a subordinate of mine erred and the commander wanted a name to send to a courts martial, he got mine. I had not been there, i did not make the mistake ... but with authority and responsibility is the duty of accountability ...

What do I see after two years?

- People exerting their authority with no accountability ...
- Abdication of responsibility
- Projects asserting independence while denying any responsibility for their actions (or lack of action)
- Denial
- Hate and dissension ...

And so, no, I don't think I will be here long ...

Why should I stay?

For the science? Where is the science? How and where is it presented so that it is meaningful TO ME? I joined one project where the page describing the point of the mathematics is so obtuse that the only reason I could conceive that a person would join is just to cut a notch in their belt.

So I can improve BOINC? Don't make me laugh ...

To write documentation? Yes I know, you can't make people read it ... but have you looked at most of it? The Unofficial WIki started getting like it is because I was trying to change the style to make it acceptable to the authorities I only later realized would never be pacified ...

For the credits? When any project can take them from me, as one already has, for any reason, or no reason at all?

To post an read comments that call me names? For those that have been around you can recall, I hope, that we could disagree without being disagreeable ... though, yes, even I did on at least one occasion step over the line ...

The question was "why do people leave?" ...

Take a good look around ... and then you tell me ... why should I stay?

When I bought a Lexus LS400 I knew why I wanted to own and be part of that experience; the comfort, the speed, the quality (they did hate that I kept calling it pea green, though that is what it looked like under the indoor lighting, it looked far better in the sunlight, and it changed color slightly with the weather, quite pretty), a love at first sight ...

When I bought this new Mac Pro 8 Core 3.2 GHz machine with 10 G or RAM, 2.38 TB RAID 5 array and another TB of internal storage, and a 5.46 TB backup array, well, I know why I want that ... the speed, the power, the beauty, the utility ... When I offered one of Nancy's friends one of my old computer she was disappointed that it was not my old PowerMac G5 that I was getting rid of ... of the 4 computers she could see, 2 Mac and 2 PC ... she wanted the Mac without question ... now that is engineering ... that is beauty ...

Love at first sight ...

Look around all of the BOINC world and tell me what is attractive here?

Who falls in love with BOINC at first sight?

I will bet no one in the BOINC development world has asked anyone that has the skills and ability to answer that question. And if a participant with those skills and abilities offered advice, well, I bet it was as well received as my proffered advice about areas where I was the subject matter expert.

And if you read this, and know a project person ... well, send it to them. Because they too should be asking the question ... why should I be there in your project ... what are you doing to make your project attractive to me? Are you going to explain the science so I can understand it? Me the non-whatever scientist? Me the human, your neighbor? Are you going to talk to me? Spend time with me? Listen to me? Oh, I forgot, you have important things to do ... after all, who needs users?

Then again ... all of those project people can once more abdicate responsibility ... after all ... its just *ONE* user ... we can ignore the loss of one user ... But how many others could he or she brought in if you could have made the sale? How much can I do, how much could I have done for you in those two years I was gone?

But the truth is, we are not just ONE user ... we am tens of thousands of users that come, and leave ... because you did not make the sale ... but it is only one customer ... you cry ... the death of the thousand cuts ... but, no matter, Paul is only one guy ... who needs him? Who needs the other schmuck, more work for ...

Retailers know that it costs 10 times more to get a new customer than it costs to keep one ... as a project, guess what, you are a retailer ... you are selling your project, and you are failing at it ...

Tell the truth, are all your neighbors crunching work for your project? All of your friends? If all your friends and neighbors are not working for you, well, you don't have an answer to a simple question ... If your friends aren't helping you, why should strangers?

Why should I be here in your project ... why should anyone be here ... why should I stay ... why should I do anything for you ... what are you going to do for me ...

For those that like to call other people names... how does that help your favorite project? If it is to get rid of the competition for that top slot, then this is about *YOU* and not about SAH or whatever project you profess to care about.

In 1972 I met a person and in 5 hours spread over 5 days I knew this was the person I wanted to spend my life with ... in 1975 we married and I have never regretted that decision. Not quite love at first sight, but close ... and even after all these years she is still as beautiful ... and that beauty extends throughout the world she passes through ...

So, last time ... why *SHOULD* *I* stay ... what in heaven's name is attractive about BOINC? Or an awful lot of the people that inhabit the BOINC world? Forget love, for heaven's sake, is there anything to like? Anything attractive?

Answer if you can, because I sure cannot see it ...

Flame or disparage as you will, you only prove my point ...

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Well, I didn't read that post yet. I'm reading over some previous ones on that SETI thread. However, I'll post comments here, since I don't have enough RAC on SETI. And if I crunch, by the time I get enough RAC to post, the thread will have a hundred more posts...

The projects insist on seeing themselves as isolated and separate from all of the others. The participant, as I tried to explain (and failed) sees BOINC and does not really see that the projects are independent entities.

If one BOINC project treats a participant badly they are more likely to drop BOINC than to just drop the project. Bad behavior by one project affects all projects.
[...]
Think of it this way, BOINC is a brand... all the projects are part of the brand.

I think it's a good idea to try hard to *drop* that idea from people's heads. Make sure people see projects as independent. They just happen to use compatible software. You don't drop your browser because a website sucks. You don't drop Windows for a single bad Windows app. We should try to make people not drop BOINC because a project sucks. BOINC is just a platform, projects run on it.

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Newcomers to BOINC may need to know that Paul D. Buck made a massive contribution to BOINC and the projects, in particular but not only by creating the Unofficial BOINC Wiki. This is still an invaluable resource and I hope BOINC crunchers will continue to edit and update its pages.

I'm glad to see that Paul is well and crunching again. I do hope he'll stay.

Yes, of course the projects are independent and simply share the BOINC platform. But when users join an extra project they arrive with a history, which is their experience of previous projects they have crunched for and where they may have read and contributed to the forum. They arrive with hopes and expectations. So a positive experience provided by one project is helpful to all other projects, and I'm sure the converse is also true.

. . . Good of You to Post Paul's Thread - Thanks Jord (here's hoping You have been Well)

> Link to Paul D Buck's Contribution

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. . . we are closer to finding the Truth than we know