The problem with that is...

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anniet
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Message 81023 - Posted: 10 Sep 2017, 17:39:46 UTC

It started with this:

Just don't mention the words Veal or Foi Gras, I can get quite irate, and you wuldn't like that
here people, followed by some recipes here ... and when I posted this there it did occur to me it might have been better if I'd done this then rather than now, but I didn't.

Now I have I will be returning (after cleaning out the cat litter and stuff) to chat about:

this, and this, and this

:)
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Message 81026 - Posted: 10 Sep 2017, 17:55:30 UTC

How do feel about escargot?
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Sirius B
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Message 81028 - Posted: 10 Sep 2017, 18:29:00 UTC

Well after a long work day, someone puts a Beef Steak/Pork Chop/Lamb Steak/Veal Cutlet in front of me, I'm going to sit down & enjoy it. The animal it came from is already dead so why waste it?

With man's inhumanity to man, seeing things like: -

The meat industry in the UK and the EU is thoroughly disgusting and inhumane.
make me curl up In laughter :-)
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Sirius B
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Message 81031 - Posted: 10 Sep 2017, 19:23:46 UTC

Another point that makes me curl up with laughter are the many who moan about meat eaters & seeing what they are wearing. Here's a lovely clue: -

Leather can be made from cows, pigs, goats, and sheep; exotic animals such as alligators, ostriches, and kangaroos; and even dogs and cats, who are slaughtered for their meat and skin in China, which exports their skins around the world.
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Profile Gary Charpentier
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Message 81032 - Posted: 10 Sep 2017, 20:22:54 UTC - in response to Message 81026.  

How do feel about escargot?

How do you feel about bird's nest soup?

Or, how many do you need to match a nice two pound prime rib?
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anniet
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Message 81034 - Posted: 10 Sep 2017, 21:33:31 UTC
Last modified: 10 Sep 2017, 21:44:01 UTC

*brandish pom-pom-no-lyx-please-pedes at all potential minions*

I wouldn't recommend that worshipping the ground thing just at the moment

No.

An absolutely cracking post that spells it out exactly how it is.
I'm glad you think so. It was meant to be a little more pragmatic in outlook though than:

The meat industry in the UK and the EU is thoroughly disgusting and inhumane. And I think all dairy farmers should be socially ostracised.
What I mean by that is - by taking the stance against veal that we have in the UK - we've made things worse for our own unwanted calves and tried to kill off what is in effect a better, more humane practise, that might have, by now - been adopted as a minimum standard in more countries if we had responded differently and decided instead to "buy British"

*suddenly stare out of monitor at world* no... I can't believe I'm arguing for people eating meat either, people... no... I can't, but someone made me ;)

Let me see if I can straighten this out to my satisfaction.

WE are the problem.

There we go! Fixed! ;)

There is a meat and dairy industry because there is a demand for them. They don't force us to consume anything they produce, we choose to. We can do as we always have done, or we can inform ourselves and make perhaps, more principled decisions based on our own personal views. Destroying an industry we're all culpable for creating - when there are those that follow practises that are so much better (in Jersey for example) - would have so many unintended consequences in the short and medium and long term - I'd prefer it if we didn't rush into it without a lot more thought and then quite a bit more first... and while we did that... in the meantime, perhaps change our own ways if we feel strongly enough to do so.

I've been having to do considerable rummaging around trying to find which alternative milk substitutes have a lower environmental cost than others do though. Milk sourced from coconuts appears to be the best... but not when it has to be transported the distances it does to get to my cup of coffee. Nestlé's coffee mate is very palatable - but their water practises are definitely on the iffy side. To give up cows milk on my cereals, I had to give up cereals, that sort of thing. In between those two points I had to weigh up which was most important to me - the merits of buying milk from Jersey and Guernsey on the grounds of vastly more humane practises, or the environmental benefits of getting it from a nearer source and being a continuing reason for the misery that has always troubled me so much, that for much of my life I tried not to think about it. I opted for cows over environment until I did (give up cereals I mean).

What if everybody else did the same? How much of "our land" would we as a species be prepared to give over to a domesticated species we no longer have a use for - bearing in mind that all along, we've been the problem?

How do feel about escargot?
*mournful blink* if there IS a hell - it'll be my record on snails that puts me there.

Another point that makes me curl up with laughter are the many who moan about meat eaters & seeing what they are wearing.
At a family dinner just before my twin went away to India, my brother decided to lay into her because she still eats meat. It made me slow blink so much I brought up his shoes, his wallet, the strap on his expensive watch, his car seats, his couch, his briefcase and his jacket all in one sentence, a bit like I did there, except I added that he should be thanking her for eating what was left after he'd donned the skin. It shut him up most satisfactorily ;) The unintended consequence though, is that he's no longer a vegetarian and it's my fault .... y-e-e-e-e-e-s :/

I think I'll stop there for the moment. This is long enough to consider giving everybody a brief break from me :) Next up: Rocky mountain oysters probably...

edit: If you find yourself running out of oxygen - please help yourself to one of these:

. . . . . , , , , , - - - - : ;

A proof-read seems to have turned up a shortage of punctuation in places.

Of course this would have been better up there *direct eyes according to instructions* than here...
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Message 81035 - Posted: 10 Sep 2017, 21:52:36 UTC

There is a semi-samizdat (and borderline illegal: i.e. illegal over the border in Scotland) trade in green-top unpasteurised farm-bottled milk. There is some hope that producers (the farmers) prepared to jump through the legal hurdles for a discerning purchasing public also have the welfare of the real producers (the cows) in mind as well.
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Message 81038 - Posted: 11 Sep 2017, 4:16:37 UTC

My 2¢ worth.
Forget all those chemical energy drinks, you know the ones I mean, the best energy drink is milk.
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Message 81043 - Posted: 11 Sep 2017, 8:07:56 UTC

Sadly I have to go out to a very early committee meeting. I will return later.
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Message 81048 - Posted: 11 Sep 2017, 11:44:00 UTC - in response to Message 81043.  

Sadly I have to go out to a very early committee meeting. I will return later.
Hmm, would that be your normal meeting dress? Blue jeans, leather belt & brown leather jacket?
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Profile Chris S
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Message 81060 - Posted: 11 Sep 2017, 14:09:31 UTC

Firstly Annie, I think you are rather brave to start this thread. We will see how it goes.

Sadly I have to go out to a very early committee meeting. I will return later.

Hmm, would that be your normal meeting dress? Blue jeans, leather belt & brown leather jacket?
No, I don't drive lorries. If necessary I would wear a business suit. Something you probably have never owned. The other items I will refer to later.

Escargot, are of course not garden snails but especially bred ones for eating. Not all species of land snail are edible, and many are too small to make it worthwhile to prepare and cook them. Even among the edible species, the palatability of the flesh varies from species to species. In France, the species Helix pomatia is most often eaten. Popular in France, Spain and Portugal, where they'll eat almost anything that moves. No thanks, not for me.

The meat industry in the UK and the EU is thoroughly disgusting and inhumane.

make me curl up In laughter :-)
I'm pleased to hear it. I expect you need a bit of amusement in your life.

Leather can be made from cows, pigs, goats, and sheep; exotic animals such as alligators, ostriches, and kangaroos; and even dogs and cats, who are slaughtered for their meat and skin in China, which exports their skins around the world.
I am very glad that you made that point about China, thank you for that.

How do you feel about bird's nest soup?
Edible bird's nests are bird nests created by edible-nest swiftlets using solidified saliva, which are harvested for human consumption. They are particularly prized in Chinese culture due to their rarity, and supposedly high nutritional value and exquisite flavour. Clearly not the common or garden nests of twigs in the rest of the world. Your choice I guess, I'll pass thanks.

Ok that's the sidelines dealt with, now down to the real business at hand.

An absolutely cracking post that spells it out exactly how it is.

I'm glad you think so. It was meant to be a little more pragmatic in outlook though than:

The meat industry in the UK and the EU is thoroughly disgusting and inhumane. And I think all dairy farmers should be socially ostracised.

There are two ways to deal with the meat industry, diplomatically with the iron fist in the glove, which you do very well. Or the name & shame approach which I am a past master at. The two combined together is a formidable attack force, against a common enemy.

by taking the stance against veal that we have in the UK - we've made things worse for our own unwanted calves and tried to kill off what is in effect a better, more humane practise, that might have, by now - been adopted as a minimum standard in more countries if we had responded differently and decided instead to "buy British"
I take it by that that are obliquely referring to inhumane animal practices abroad? Most of us do "buy British" when at home. but it is difficult to do that whilst on holiday or living elsewhere.

We are the problem.
Agreed. Human beings always have been as far as animals are concerned.

There is a meat and dairy industry because there is a demand for them. They don't force us to consume anything they produce, we choose to. We can do as we always have done, or we can inform ourselves and make perhaps, more principled decisions based on our own personal views.
Agree 100% :-)

Destroying an industry we're all culpable for creating - when there are those that follow practises that are so much better (in Jersey for example) - would have so many unintended consequences in the short and medium and long term - I'd prefer it if we didn't rush into it without a lot more thought and then quite a bit more first... and while we did that... in the meantime, perhaps change our own ways if we feel strongly enough to do so.
The industry that we initially created is past it's sell by date and less and less wanted any more in 21C Britain. If we ate less meat, especially inhumane produced meat, there would not be a market for it, and gradually those producers would go out of business, and find another source of income.

I've been having to do considerable rummaging around trying to find which alternative milk substitutes have a lower environmental cost than others do though. Milk sourced from coconuts appears to be the best... but not when it has to be transported the distances it does to get to my cup of coffee. Nestlé's coffee mate is very palatable - but their water practises are definitely on the iffy side.
Thank you for bringing up Nestle, a very good point that should be brought out.

The Swiss company has made a number of corporate acquisitions, including Crosse & Blackwell in 1950, Findus in 1963, Libby's in 1971, Rowntree Mackintosh in 1988, and Gerber in 2007.
A typical corporate raider cherry picking the best of British. But as to the particular point that you made, look here Not very nice people

I had to weigh up which was most important to me - the merits of buying milk from Jersey and Guernsey on the grounds of vastly more humane practises, or the environmental benefits of getting it from a nearer source and being a continuing reason for the misery that has always troubled me so much, that for much of my life I tried not to think about it. I opted for cows over environment until I did (give up cereals I mean).
Very good. But what is wrong with soy milk on cereals? We don't HAVE to drink cows milk, there is an alternative.

What if everybody else did the same? How much of "our land" would we as a species be prepared to give over to a domesticated species we no longer have a use for - bearing in mind that all along, we've been the problem?
AS I said before if dairy farming products went of of fashion, then the animals would simply not be bred any more. We would not have thousands of acres full of unwanted animals, they simply wouldn't be there.

(Quick aside thought ... Can you make cheese out of anything other than cows or goats milk???)

At a family dinner just before my twin went away to India, my brother decided to lay into her because she still eats meat. It made me slow blink so much I brought up his shoes, his wallet, the strap on his expensive watch, his car seats, his couch, his briefcase and his jacket all in one sentence, a bit like I did there, except I added that he should be thanking her for eating what was left after he'd donned the skin. It shut him up most satisfactorily ;)
Bloody well done 10/10, proud of you.

The unintended consequence though, is that he's no longer a vegetarian and it's my fault .... y-e-e-e-e-e-s :/
No it isn't at all, that was just petty revenge from a not nice person.

There is a semi-samizdat (and borderline illegal: i.e. illegal over the border in Scotland) trade in green-top unpasteurised farm-bottled milk. There is some hope that producers (the farmers) prepared to jump through the legal hurdles for a discerning purchasing public also have the welfare of the real producers (the cows) in mind as well.
One can only hope, but I hadn't heard of green top milk, so many thanks for that.

Back to leather products. I don't own any. no belts jackets wallets or shoes. All are simulated leather except for shoes a which are artificial uppers and soles. I did have a suede jacket in my 20's long long gone.

A Lady called M posted in the original thread.

What is our "lifestyle"?

Up all night tending an injured calf and now about to start the working day alongside my husband might be a good place to start.
An absolutely ideal place to start I would say. Answer us all this please. Was your night sojourn out of pure humanitarian concern for the welfare of the injured animal? Or was it protecting a business asset that you would sell on later to be killed for monetary gain?

More later.
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Sirius B
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Message 81061 - Posted: 11 Sep 2017, 14:17:42 UTC - in response to Message 81060.  

Hmm, would that be your normal meeting dress? Blue jeans, leather belt & brown leather jacket?[/i]
No, I don't drive lorries. If necessary I would wear a business suit. Something you probably have never owned. The other items I will refer to later.
You just can't stop can you. It's a shame that photobucket no longer allows 3rd party linking :-(

Can you confirm that the animal whose skin you wear was not slaughtered inhumanely? You cannot, so wouldn't it be a waste of food to discard its meat?
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Message 81065 - Posted: 11 Sep 2017, 14:28:36 UTC
Last modified: 11 Sep 2017, 14:29:12 UTC

It's a shame that photobucket no longer allows 3rd party linking :-(
Yes it is, very much so. I still wonder if they might reverse their position. But unlikely as they would have to refund a lot of money to those that have already decided to pay up.

Can you confirm that the animal whose skin you wear was not slaughtered inhumanely?
I do not to my knowledge wear any item made from animal skin.

so wouldn't it be a waste of food to discard its meat?
You have the freedom in a democracy to eat whatever you wish. As do others who choose not to eat some foods.
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anniet
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Message 81066 - Posted: 11 Sep 2017, 15:03:48 UTC



*visit scary kitchen cupboard where things fall out of*



Just need to find a match now.... :)


.....


Here we go! :)


...never seen one with such a long lighty bit though ...




*light long lighty bit*

Back soon :)
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Profile Chris S
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Message 81070 - Posted: 11 Sep 2017, 15:32:46 UTC - in response to Message 81066.  
Last modified: 11 Sep 2017, 15:39:40 UTC

What slightly worries me is what else there in this scary cupboard that also falls out upon ones head. I mean apart from red candles with long wicks?

If you find any of these they're not night lights OK??



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Profile Gary Charpentier
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Message 81074 - Posted: 11 Sep 2017, 16:54:19 UTC - in response to Message 81066.  
Last modified: 11 Sep 2017, 16:56:09 UTC

Here we go! :)


...never seen one with such a long lighty bit though ...




*light long lighty bit*

Back soon :)

I think I'll light one too.
Ah, here it is ...

I'm sure that will keep the peace around here. Be back after the eye Dr.
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Message 81083 - Posted: 11 Sep 2017, 18:36:14 UTC

While Annie is away most likely attending to family things, I will say this. There are many reasons why people turn to vegetarianism, But I would suggest that there are probably just two main ones. Firstly they simply don't like the taste of meat, or secondly it is on the grounds of animal welfare or the lack of it.

I have to be honest and say that I don't dislike the taste of red meat. But I won't eat it on principle because of how much of it is reared and produced. I do still eat white meat such as chicken, but I gave up turkey many years ago after the Bernard Mathews scandal. Google it. You just don't know where your stuff comes from these days.

But peoples tastes and views are changing. Take eggs for one example. Many years ago all you could buy were simple white eggs. It was never required to say on the box how or where they came from. Then we went through that silly phase where people were convinced that Brown eggs were more nutritious than white ones, which was untrue. It was down to the breed of hen that laid them.

These days we have

"from caged hens" which is still battery farming.
"barn eggs" the chickens are not caged but enclosed.
"Free range" the chickens are outside in the open.

You only have to look at the shelves in your local supermarket to see what is the most popular, and yes, customers will pay extra. Other stuff has to be eco friendly i.e. timber goods made from sustainable forests, man made textiles , bio fuels etc. Public tastes are changing, slowly and surely. But today's dairy farmers need not worry, they will still have a job in 100 years. Likely their grand children won't.
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Sirius B
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Message 81085 - Posted: 11 Sep 2017, 18:57:05 UTC

Amazing what use animals can put to...

Tallow

...and the lengths some go to whinge...

Whingers
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Message 81086 - Posted: 11 Sep 2017, 19:12:54 UTC
Last modified: 11 Sep 2017, 19:23:52 UTC

A spokeswoman said the issue was the polymer that the new £5 notes are printed on, which contains tallow. The central bank buys polymer pellets from an external company, Innovia Security, which supplies banknote substrate for 80 denominations in 24 countries.
This is a difficult one to be sure. I'll have to think and decide which side of the fence I'll go on.

Generally my feelings are that if the animal in question was cruelly reared, and inhumanely slaughtered, then eating their dead body or using the by products of their death has to be discouraged as a matter of ethical principle. But we have to be pragmatic here. Animal products are used the world over, and there is no definitive list that I know of for them all.

Perhaps the only solution is to avoid the worst of the practices and accept that the rest will have to sadly be.

(BTW church candles are usually made of Beeswax not tallow).

Edit - family life calls. I may be back later if not catch you all tomorrow
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Sirius B
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Message 81088 - Posted: 11 Sep 2017, 20:40:16 UTC - in response to Message 81086.  

Generally my feelings are that if the animal in question was cruelly reared, and inhumanely slaughtered, then eating their dead body or using the by products of their death has to be discouraged as a matter of ethical principle.
Fair enough comment. However, what does ethics say about wasting good meat?
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