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Profile Peter Shane

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Message 63218 - Posted: 23 Jul 2015, 11:46:07 UTC

First of all, Please be aware that whilst my BOINC User name is Cruncher Pete [BlackOpsTeam], I consider that it is not suitable to use for it implicates my Team BlackOps. The views I wish to express in this Forum is my own, therefore I Registered my true name to reflect that.

I ask if it would be possible to create and extra Category called: BOINC Critique. The purpose of which could be used to point out likes and dislikes of BOINC with the view to show the Administration that we do care about the system. It should not be used as a flame war but an area where constructive criticism could be aired so that managers of the software could judge our likes and dislikes leading to a better use utilized for planning.

Presently there are lists all over the place covering various aspects of the software. In my opinion this is not ideal as the public at large is not aware what the left or right hand is doing. This is the Official Forum and I suggest the place that should be used as a common interface between the Project Managers and users showing greater awareness. I am not happy to be labelled that users need not know anything as is stated by a member of the Project Management Committee (PMC) neither am I happy that they answer a question from a committer by a question and failing to reply after a reasonable time. One might think that they have never received the querry.

I intend to quizz the PMC to show greater transparency hoping that the result will be a better product. If necessary I will create a website for a user consortium and canvas for developers to create a product that we as users want not the other way around. Personally, the product I am looking for is a software that might be used in a network environment purely for the benefit of Scientific Research. I do not believe that the current system provides that as I intend to demonstrate in future articles.

Keep on crunching and have a nice day..
Peter Shane (Cruncher Pete)
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Profile Jord
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Message 63219 - Posted: 23 Jul 2015, 16:07:45 UTC - in response to Message 63218.  

All (major) changes to anything BOINC (client, GUI, server, other back-end/forum, add-ons etc.) will have to be asked permission for from the PMC, or in the least from David Anderson. This is one of those things you'll have to ask David, in email.

You're in your right to fork off the BOINC source code and make any and all changes you deem necessary as long as you allow others access to your changed source code and documentation, as deemed possible under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License.
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Profile Peter Shane

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Message 63222 - Posted: 24 Jul 2015, 0:17:35 UTC - in response to Message 63219.  

All (major) changes to anything BOINC (client, GUI, server, other back-end/forum, add-ons etc.) will have to be asked permission for from the PMC, or in the least from David Anderson. This is one of those things you'll have to ask David, in email.



Jord, please clarify you statement. Your reply seems to indicate to me that you as an Administrator of this forum is not permitted to change the layout and create a General Area in which we as users can discuss points of view on BOINC. The only area that is suitable at present to express a point of view is in the "Questions and Problem" sub category. If a user who do not have a question or have any problems are at a loss for there is no "General" area in which he may voice his point of view as is permitted in all Forum Software. Generally, if you are not permitted to say something it is written openly under the Rules of the Software. For example: Swearing is not permitted and other statements relating to illegal activities. You have no such rules or even a Eula to cover yourself in case of litigation. I am aware that this is a modified Forum to suit David, but please be aware of the following:

1. You have been given authority from David to Administer this site, furthermore you are an executive of the Day to Day Management of BOINC and you have been classified as an authorized "Committer" as advertised. David has indicated that he has transitioned the system to a community based one in which he has no more authority as a Chairman than members of the Project Management Committee (PMC). Members of the PMC have stated that that they will not answer questions on a Day to Day Problem. You would be aware of that since they did not answer openly questions that you have submitted to them. Therefore I ask, Is all our problems, questions on layout of the Forum or in deed Day to Day management of the Forum should all be directed to David as you indicate? I understood that such decisions is invested in the "Committer" and in this case the Administrator who is entrusted to manage it? Why is adding a "General Category" a major change that you as Administrator are not permitted to do?

2. Does this mean that in this Forum you are in deed only a Moderator and anything dealing with a change of as simple as a layout must be referred to David who stated that he has transitioned the system to be managed by the PMC for he is not being paid and is busy with other projects. Why are you referring me to the PMC or David when it has been stated that they will not give an answer.? In addition, it is a know fact that David will not answer if it does not suit him for it is not aspected that he can handle thousands of questions from users, I assume that is the reason that he has handed over the running, planning and management to people to help him, I understood you were an appointee to do that.

Please be aware that I intend to keep up my confrontational approach and have no intention to hurt you personal feeling.(Let me call that Colleteral Damage which is a consequences of a good intentioned aim)) I am about offering a critique from a user that perceives that there is no transparency. The use of the BOINC software is designed in such as way as to mislead the public. Until users are acknowledged that they are a critical part of the software I will not aspect statements from a member of the PMC that "users don't need to know" what is happening and where can they offer their point of view. Dividing the system into lots of _lists will only confuse everybody. The management and Documentation should be open for public scrutiny and input instead of hiding facts.

Keep on crunching and have a nice day..
Peter Shane (Cruncher Pete)

A quote fro Jord: (Used to be a single voice that vanished in a crowd. Vague just like a distant sun when hidden by the clouds.
Found a way to surface and to speak my truth aloud. Be powerful. Stand fast and proud."
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Profile Jord
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Message 63225 - Posted: 24 Jul 2015, 9:53:10 UTC - in response to Message 63222.  
Last modified: 24 Jul 2015, 14:10:58 UTC

Jord, please clarify you statement.

If you want changes done to the forum, you will have to email David Anderson about it. He has direct access to the server. Adding a forum in the BOINC software isn't just clicking some options in a back-end menu, but means adding the actual forum name and description into the database, a little thing I cannot do.

Your reply seems to indicate to me that you as an Administrator of this forum is not permitted to change the layout and create a General Area in which we as users can discuss points of view on BOINC.

Correct.

The only area that is suitable at present to express a point of view is in the "Questions and Problem" sub category.

Technically, it is something for in "The Lounge".

If a user who do not have a question or have any problems are at a loss for there is no "General" area in which he may voice his point of view as is permitted in all Forum Software. Generally, if you are not permitted to say something it is written openly under the Rules of the Software. For example: Swearing is not permitted and other statements relating to illegal activities. You have no such rules or even a Eula to cover yourself in case of litigation.

You must have been missing those rules on the left of every post- and answer window you have seen so far in this forum. But otherwise, do read https://boinc.berkeley.edu/dev/moderation.php.
As for the EULA do read http://boinc.berkeley.edu/wiki/Usage_rules.

1. You have been given authority from David to Administer this site, furthermore you are an executive of the Day to Day Management of BOINC and you have been classified as an authorized "Committer" as advertised.

You yourself said in some post or email at a time that you do not want to make things difficult, use normal English and all that, but whenever you jump on that bandwagon your English becomes that of a stiff official: difficult to follow. Why don't you drop all the jargon for once and type in normal English what's on your mind? Walls of text really don't do justice to this either. Use brevity and paragraphs where possible, even when being brief you can still make your point.

Therefore I ask, Is all our problems, questions on layout of the Forum or in deed Day to Day management of the Forum should all be directed to David as you indicate?

Large changes to the forums -- such as "we want to change the complete layout of everything" or "we want to change the cascading style sheet from this to that" -- are for the PMC to decide upon. Smaller things, such as the addition of a forum on the BOINC forums, are to be sent to David, as it's his forum, running on his personal server.

I understood that such decisions is invested in the "Committer" and in this case the Administrator who is entrusted to manage it? Why is adding a "General Category" a major change that you as Administrator are not permitted to do?

I have no direct read/write access to the server and the database, and do not want direct read/write access to the server or the database. Having been offered this in the past, I declined with a thank you, no thank you. If I need something, I can ask.

I have always been quite frank why I have the administrator title: it's so I can delete posts left behind by spammers. Moderators can hide posts, that just means that they are no longer visible to the non-moderator public. Moderators and administrators still see those posts and their contents. I though have a Delete button, with which I can delete those posts from the forum's database. That's my only 'db access'.

It's not all positive, because the administrator title makes it that any HTML code I use is executed immediately, which means that I cannot write direct XML examples without jumping through some hoops. The tag containers of XML are executed even though they may not do anything. Thus they do not show up, unless I use a [code/] container, or when in a sentence where I cannot use BBCode without severely disrupting the sentence, I'll have to use ASCII coding for the 'lower than' sign '<' that starts off these containers.

2. Does this mean that in this Forum you are in deed only a Moderator and anything dealing with a change of as simple as a layout must be referred to David

Correct. It's his forum, it runs on his server. We all are merely guests here.

Why are you referring me to the PMC or David when it has been stated that they will not give an answer.?

Don't say 'it has been stated', instead just point out where I said that. It shows you and everyone else a thing or two: you are allowed to spew whatever you want to say in anger onto these forums. As long as you don't use a swear word every other sentence, it'll stay on these forums, it's not hidden because we don't want negative attention to ourselves. It shows you that even I am allowed to speak my kind when I feel things are out of whack.

However, since that outburst of mine I have heard a couple of things on this, things I sadly cannot share with any of the rest of you as they were shared in confidence. It's not the end of this. Changes are still coming through, they just go slow. This whole change to the PMC and the community wasn't done overnight, July 3rd. It is a process that will gradually change over the coming months. The only thing that changed at that point was that the three main BOINC developers were no longer being paid for their work on the source code. For the rest, everything else that was going on in the background, that you never worried about before, is still running as it was prior to July 3rd.


In addition, it is a know fact that David will not answer if it does not suit him for it is not aspected that he can handle thousands of questions from users, I assume that is the reason that he has handed over the running, planning and management to people to help him, I understood you were an appointee to do that.

Again going there with the assumptions. Just as you took it upon yourself to appoint me for the PMC, without asking me first if I had the time or interest in doing so, you just assume things. What's so difficult about asking me?

Please be aware that I intend to keep up my confrontational approach and have no intention to hurt you personal feeling.

My skin really is thick, yet if I don't like what I read then I am also not going to answer you.

This is the Official Forum and I suggest the place that should be used as a common interface between the Project Managers and users showing greater awareness.

This has always been the User forum. Maintained by users, helping other users. The developers only read here when I, or someone else, point out to them that we would like them to look in on things, and even then they don't always do so. Or not immediately.

Hence the warning at the top of the index:
- These messages boards are for the discussion of BOINC, not projects (such as SETI@home, World Community Grid, and so on). To discuss a project, please use its message boards.
- These message boards are frequented by volunteers. It's likely (but not guaranteed) that they'll be able to respond to your questions or suggestions.

Despite your apparent fuming hatred of the boinc_* email lists, that is the most direct way to the developers and now the PMC. And albeit that I do not think that the boinc_admin googlegroup is a good list for discussions with the PMC, there is an alternative, being the Boinc development list that has been around since forever, which is a good substitute. It does need registration to receive email from it and to be able to post to it, but its archives are free for anyone to access.
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Profile Gary Charpentier
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Message 63226 - Posted: 24 Jul 2015, 13:41:49 UTC

Grrrrrr

Jord is attempting to tell you that no person who actually develops the BOINC code EVER reads anything posted here.

If you want to work yourself into a foaming lather posting here you can in "The Lounge" as long as you obey the rules on the left of the post box.

If you want something changed in BOINC you have to use the PMC e-mail list.

As to the rest JORD isn't going to create something that makes people think someone is reading it when they aren't!

Grrrrrr
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Profile Peter Shane

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Message 63240 - Posted: 27 Jul 2015, 11:42:41 UTC - in response to Message 63226.  

Grrrrrr

Jord is attempting to tell you that no person who actually develops the BOINC code EVER reads anything posted here.


And do you think that is correct? Than why don't you write to the PMC and tell them if it is not?

If you want to work yourself into a foaming lather posting here you can in "The Lounge" as long as you obey the rules on the left of the post box.


"The Lounge" area is designed as stated: "Meet and great other participants". Do you think that my Critique will reach a lot of members and the PMC? Will my Support question be answered here by the PMC?

If you want something changed in BOINC you have to use the PMC e-mail list.


Please give me the URL for that list, I can not find it.

As to the rest JORD isn't going to create something that makes people think someone is reading it when they aren't!


Jord tells me that he has no authority to change anything, you need to discuss it with David in an email as I am told. It has nothing to do what he thinks. You read minds as well?

Let me be clear. I asked to have a General area designed for the purpose in which participants can discuss BOINC generally like it is offered in any other Forum that I have even known. This has been cripled by David to suit his needs at the time when it was under his control. The Project Adnin has no power to change anything accept to Moderate and hit the Delete button. At least that is what he said to me. I was hoping to discuss this and other matter for this is the time to talk to the New Governing authority to change things to meet users needs that is what Message Boards are designed for and to meet the developers. I do not need negative comments but constructive criticism which we than forward to the Management Committee to help them creating a software in which users also have an input.

Grrrrrr[/quote]
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Message 63242 - Posted: 27 Jul 2015, 18:26:31 UTC - in response to Message 63240.  

...or this is the time to talk to the New Governing authority to change things to meet users needs that is what Message Boards are designed for and to meet the developers.

These message boards were never designed for talking with the developers of BOINC, but mainly for users helping other users with their problems with BOINC.

Or as I said in the Governance Model thread: we're a technical forum where users - be it people who run the BOINC client, or project administrators who run the back-end - who have problems with their BOINC can ask for help from other users. It does happen that a BOINC developer peeks in on his own and answers, or that they do so after someone on the forums asked them to come take a look.
We are not a general discussion forum about anything BOINC. It is surely possible that you can have such a discussion on these boards, but we're not specifically made for them. In this case, as you have done with your cross-posting thread, post it in the Q&P forum. Technically correct, as you have questions about the PMC and problems with their setup.


The Project Admin has no power to change anything except to Moderate and hit the Delete button.

No no, the project admin == David Anderson. It's him who does have the power to change things on the forums. That's because he can log in on the BOINC domain server. He can add to the BOINC back-end software running on that server, the one that runs this forum, the one that runs the Alpha project, the whole BOINC web site, the Wiki's, etc.

Again, I have never made more of the administrative title that I have as it is: a means to delete posts left behind by spammers. That you or someone else feels it must be more, it needs to be more, is something you have to live with. The way that the BOINC forum software is constructed, this could not be added to my moderator account, without a structural rewrite of the software. It was easier to give me administrative powers.

These do not come with a login on the server, or an option to read contents of the hard drive of Isaac, and write edited contents back. Phew, thank the deities I do not have that power.

I do not need negative comments but constructive criticism which we than forward to the Management Committee to help them creating a software in which users also have an input.

In a discussion you will find people on your way who do not see things your way and who will tell you that, as that's how a discussion works.
Next you want to have a discussion with other users on how you want things to be changed, but all that you allow the other users to write about is how beautiful you have written your statements, and how eloquent you were in bringing the strategic war zone to the developers of the software. Then after that, once you have dotted all your t's and crossed all your i's, you're going to write in to the developers/PMC and tell them in a positively constructive manner that how they have so far gone about their things is not right? I am confused here, for as thus far I haven't seen any constructive criticism from you on how to solve anything.

All you've done so far is repeat things I asked and haven't had answered yet. Where are your own questions?
You want new forums added, but refuse to email the one person who can do so. No, instead you throw your toys out of the pram and fight anyone who tries to put them back.
You want a user appointed to the PMC, preferably me. As I said, I am not interested. So why not appoint yourself, why must someone else do it for you? Else, why not post a thread about it in the forums, asking who is interested in doing this job, who has the time, who thinks it makes a difference? Or email such a request to the BOINC development email list?

You're making it so extremely difficult for yourself by refusing to use the email lists. For example, last Thursday evening I emailed the BOINC Alpha email list and requested that a project's science application name was show in the properties of a running task, when you click one in the advanced view in BOINC Manager. I explained in short what problem I had and what solution I thought was possible for this. About three hours later, it was added by David.
This shows that users have already got input in how BOINC can be enhanced/changed/added upon, for I am but a mere user. I did not have to add code myself, but rather asked.
It also shows that things are just as they were before, ask something and if found to have merit, it'll be added. No need to go through chambers, committees, or Congress.
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