User talk:Dagorath

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Just discovered how to send messages to other registered contributors, I think.

Actually, you edited my user page instead of the talk page :) Nicolas (talk) 02:37, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Attach project dialogue

If you agree with renaming Attach project dialogue to "Attach project wizard", don't copy the contents manually into a new page. If I use the actual "move" feature, the page history will be kept (and it will automatically make a redirect from old name to new). Nicolas (talk) 02:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Fedora testing

Thanks for testing the Fedora instructions. If you have F8 and F9 machines could you also use them to try out the repositoires (yum commands). As with Ubuntu, I think the single command line installation is the simplest.

I have 6.2.15 for Fedora 8 and that seems to work, but I should test it further, especially from a user account. Thanks. --Eric (talk) 19:27, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I already tried out the repositories with the yum commands. It works just fine. I wouldn't have written the instructions into the wiki if I had not tested them first.
A single command line is always simplest but I hope we can do more than cater to just the simpletons. We could also help users of average intelligence too by including more than just the simplest stuff.
If you've only tested it while running as root then yes you definitely should test it from a user account and become aware of the issues. I think what you're leading up to here is deleting the Optional Hints section because it's simpler to write docs describing the simple way which is to run an unsecured system (by putting a blank password in qui_rpc_auth.cfg). Very mediocre and not very helpful. Dagorath (talk) 00:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
I like the idea behind the Optional Hints section, but it's the same for Fedora as for Ubuntu (and any other distro). So I'm thinking that deserves it's own page. The question is what to call it (not just "optional hints for Linux"). --Eric (talk) 08:47, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
No, it's not the same for Fedora and Ubuntu because the paths to gui_rpc_auth.cfg are different. And other distros will be different again. So if we move it all to 1 page then on that page we need separate sections for each distro. Why not just put the material for distro X on distro X's page? That way the user cannot miss the link and miss the material. Or is the real objective here to get everything you don't like on 1 page so it's easier to make it all disappear?
The fact that the paths are slightly different is not important to the main goal of the new page, which would be to tell the user how to set a gui_rpc password and allow controll from a user account, or from a remote host. It's better to put that all on one page, and just explain the paths are different for different distros as a part of it. My goal is to make the Fedora and Ubuntu Install pages simple, readable, and applicable to the widest group of users. More detailed information should then be moved to a separate page. What I don't want to see is long, winding pages, with tons of information but which scare people away. That's the Unofficial BOINC wiki. --Eric (talk) 18:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm thinking now that the new page would be called something like Enabling user control on Linux --Eric (talk) 18:49, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
No, Eric, your goal is to make it easy for you to write and maintain. You're giving the users' needs the backseat. The page is not long and winding the way it is now. But you go ahead and change it the way you want it. If it doesn't tell explicitly what the paths are, the way it does now, I'll just change it back. You and your daft way of explaining things is PRECISELY the reason why newbies can't follow instructions for CLI. So when you fuck it up and people show in the forums with questions I'm just gonna tell them to ask Eric Myers the guy who fucked it all up, except guess what Eric, you ain't gonna be there for them to ask, so just leave things the way they are Dagorath (talk) 20:21, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Whoa. I don't think there is call here for vulgarity. I'm trying to have a discussion of the merits of different ways to do things, and I'm looking for the key to your argument that each page should have it's own version of what is essentially the same information, with minor variations. I did not mean that the page is now long and winding now, and I'm sorry if you took offense that that comment. I'm trying to come to a consensus with you, not fight you. --Eric (talk) 02:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
OK, it's not long and winding now and as soon as I figure out how to use the command(s) to add user X to the boinc user's group it will be even shorter by a few lines. So that removes the long and winding concern altogether. Now the concern about the same info with minor differences... put yourself in the users' shoes and realise that the differences that seem minor to an experienced user like you and me are much bigger and more worrisome to newbies. It's easier and less confusing for them if all the Ubuntu stuff is separate from all the Fedora stuff and preferably all on 1 page. You and I know know exactly what they need to read but they don't. In their mind there is always the thought that maybe they missed something from another page. If it's clear to them that on 1 page they have everything they need to 1) install the client and manager and 2) get the manager connecting to the client and 3) be able to edit the various data files with no permissions hassles, then it's just a lot easier and less confusing for them. A lot of people don't have the reading skills you and I have, they need docs to be absolutely goof-proof with a minimum of page turning and link hopping. If you want to do it your way then go ahead and I'll reserve final judgement until I see the final product. Who knows I might like it if it's absolutely clear as to what needs to be done for each distro, no guessing required on the user's part. But if it's just "this what to do for Distro X, all other distros are kind of similar, go figure because I can't be bothered giving you the vowel I have right here in my hands" then forget it, that won't fly. Dagorath (talk) 03:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree with your goals. I also want to make it clear and simple. If there is a way, for example, to add the user to the 'boinc' group, and it's the same on all distros, then I would favor that over editing /etc/group. But if there is not, it's worhwhile to mention how to do it on each distro page. My comment about long and winding pages was that I would rather avoid getting them, not that we have them now. Too long and they are daunting to new users. That's is why I felt some of the pages on UBW were too long. You are clearly putting a lot of effort and thought into how to make this work for less experienced users, and we need that. I want to work with you on that, not against it. --Eric (talk) 13:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, Eric. You've been one of the driving forces behind BOINC for Linux and as a newcomer and Linux newbie I appreciate and respect that. And I apologise for being short tempered and rude to you in that other post. Know that I don't hold grudges and I usually get over it quickly, or at least I try to.
No problem. Typing through this little window is not the best way to communicate, so we have to give others the benefit of the doubt. I didn't realize I might have offended you, and I'm sorry if I did. I think these pages are improving because of the discussion. --Eric (talk) 18:32, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
I know you didn't mean the current pages are long and winding so I wasn't offended by that. You want to avoid long and winding in the future and putting the Optional Hints on a separate page that covers that topic for all distros may be the best way to do that. It's hard to strike a balance between short pages and too many links to other pages but I think we can make your plan work nicely. Bottom line is we can get others to tell us if it works for them or not and we can revise it easily. It's almost to the point of just moving blocks of text around because we have the basic material down pat, almost. In the end the folks are gonna love it either way :)
I never did like advising folks to manually edit /etc/group. Made me shudder. I think I just found what we're looking for at How to Install BOINC on Mandriva. Part way down the page he gives an example of the usermod command. It looks like "usermod -G <group> -a <username>" is what we need. If that's a "kernel command" there is a good chance it will work exactly the same on most distros. So far I haven't even tried "man usermod" yet so I have NOOOO idea what side effects it might have so please use with caution. I'll try it out on Fedora but I have no Ubuntu so maybe you can try it on Ubuntu. At that point we'll have an even better idea of what to put on the new page you want.
Also thinking about how we might use that site or info from that site for this wiki's page on installing on Mandriva but first I have to clear other stuff off my plate. Dagorath (talk) 22:39, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

There may be a technical way to balance between having the same info on one page or the same info on several pages but still managable. If we put the info in a separate wiki page we can then "transclude" it (insert it into another page) using the Template system. So if you have a page called "Other stuff" then you'd insert into each page that would use a copy of it

{{:Other stuff}}

and the contents of that page would be inserted. This is only useful if the same information is relevant for all Linux distros (eg. 'usermod' exists on all of them -- I think it does). In contrast, the page Stop or start BOINC daemon after boot clearly has to have separate sections for separate distros, as they are all so different in that way. --Eric (talk) 18:32, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I finally installed Ubuntu 8.10 today and then installed BOINC from repo. This is the first time I have used Ubuntu. BOINC on Ubuntu is quite different from BOINC on Fedora. It looks to me like the BOINC client for Ubuntu has been modified to accept only a blank password even if you put a password in /etc/boinc-client/gui_rpc_auth.cfg and restart the client. Hmmm. Interesting. Now I think maybe I see why people wanted to get rid of the Optional Hints section. It just doesn't apply to Ubuntu and never will. Dagorath (talk) 12:46, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Huh? The BOINC client in the Ubuntu repo alters permissions on data files????? To correct untenable scheduler conditions created by bugs in the client, I want and need write permission on client_state.xml. After I give me permission with the appropriate chmod, BOINC client just changes it back again. Applications that subvert system settings specified by the system administrator are malware and anybody who distributes malware should be punished. I'll be getting rid of that piece of crap malware in just a few minutes. My god, the nerve of some people. Or is it just plain stupidity? Dagorath (talk) 21:37, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


Migrating from Trac

I'm new here, but I think I'm starting to learn my way around. Thanks for the kind words. Is the goal to move everything from Trac to here? Or is this wiki only for things users would deal with, while the trac is for developers? And how does the Unofficial BOINC wiki fit into all of this?

--Pat Hawks (talk) 08:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure what the goal is regarding moving material from Trac. Nicolas is probably the best one to talk to on that. I came in after the bulk of the work was done (the work of moving Trac over). I just help out where I can, fixing typos, spelling mistakes and grammar errors, clarifying difficult passages, etc., and have focused primarily on documenting how to install BOINC client on various Linux distros. Again, thanks for your valuable contributions on the Gentoo page and elsewhere. Yes, you do have the wiki spirit and editing skills.
Paul D. Buck owns the Unofficial BOINC wiki. Paul and I have personal and political differences so my opinion is tainted/suspect/whatever. And I am not aware of the entire history. I have heard that Paul wanted the unofficial wiki to be the official wiki and to have Berkeley link to it on BOINC's main page. That's just what I heard. Or maybe what really happened is that Paul just wanted his unofficial wiki mentioned in a list of documents sites, I really don't know. Some say Buck wanted huge changes in all areas of BOINC and that's why Berkeley distanced themselves from him. Anyway, Berkeley (i.e. Dr. D. Anderson) has apparently refused to give any recognition to Buck's unofficial wiki, or any other wiki for that matter. At least I don't see it mentioned on any of Berkeley's pages, maybe I've missed it.
--Dagorath (talk) 16:01, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Fedora: passwordless connection from Manager

Hi Dagorath,

I'm the Fedora package of BOINC and I just noticed that already in 2011 the instructions have been modified to instruct to users to change the permissions of /var/lib/boinc and symlink to home directory. AFAIK this was never necessary and is definitely not necessary now, so I suggest removing all steps except adding the user to the boinc group (I just verified on a clean installation that it is enough). Also, the instructions may mention how to add the user to the boinc group via a GUI. Any objections?